Europe

The French Elections: Interview with Olivier Delbeke

John Reimann
And we’re talking with Olivier Delbeke in France about the elections there. Olivier is with Aplutsoc, which is the abbreviations of Argument (or Struggle) for the Social Struggle.

Olivier
For five years, Macron pursued a neoliberal policy that sparked the yellow vest movement in November 2019. And resistance to his attacks on pensions during the general strike of December five, on 2019. The yellow vest movement, it was stretching the social anger of the bulk of the population with unorganized and outside the scope of the existing labor organization. During the COVID pandemic in 2020, and 2021. Macron used society justified fear of illness to isolate (?) social movement, as soon as normal activity returned strikes in many sectors focused on wage demand. In 2021, Macron used the vaccination obligation to launch an attack on labor law. Unfortunately, the union leaders were not up to task because they feared to pass for antivax, lower wages, precarious jobs, destruction of public services, attacks on freedoms, police violence, like lack of action against climate change.

At the end of his five years term. Macron concentrated on a very strong feeling of rejection, especially among the poorest segments of the population. Macron passed for the President of the rich, as already in his time Sarkozy had passed for the President of the ultra-rich. Unfortunately, the whole left justify keeping in until the end until the end of his mandate, for by refusing to question is legitimacy. The major political problem for us is that the left that is socialist parties, the Communist Party, the Green [Party], Melanchon, in France respects the institutions of the Fifth Republic, and therefore cannot effectively challenge the current president and his policies. Since the left does not challenge Macron’s policies, the far right with its racism, and social demagogy, is reaping social despair at the electoral level. The pillar parties of the Fifth Republic over the previous decades, the Socialist Party, the Republicans have been reduced to nothing. One 1.75% for Anne Hidalgo of the Socialist Party. The historical Gaullic party was emptied on wise on one side by Zemmour, serving as a getaway to LePen vote in the second round, and on the other side in favor of Macron and his party area 11. The challenge for Macron is to finally succeed in building a real President’s party, essential things a president but people who are part of the institution of the Fifth Republic.

Unknown Speaker
I was reading something that said that perhaps Melanchon, I believe, could become the Prime Minister, if that’s correct, or that Macron would need to partner with other parties to fill the Prime Minister’s position.

Olivier
In the French and institutional system, after the presidential election, you have the parliamentary elections. And the President the winner take whole. So the president must must have parliamentary majority. And from the majority, it will take a prime minister. Melanchon is dreaming a lot about to be the next prime minister by winning some kind of majority in favor of left party around his movement, the France Insoumise, but he’s doing it in a very sectarian manner. It won’t succeed. It could succeed if there were real will to challenge to fight against Macron. that is not the the way in which Melanchon is thinking. He is referring to the cohabitation between Chirac and Jospin between 1997 and 2002, when the great success of Jaospin was finally to open the gate for the second term to reopen further, in 2002, it was not a big success.

John Reimann
Outside of France, Melanchon is generally seen as a left alternative to Macron. But you come as did not critically support him and called for a boycott of the elections. I would be interested in hearing an explanation.

Olivier
Melanchon is an old experienced politician who will tend to design the legacies of Mitterand of the Socialist Party of George Marchiere of the Communist Party and Pierre Holandais of Trotskyist organization which once was quite big. …. Melanchon’s political role in the Socialist Party was to build a false left wing that never questioned government policy. During the election, the last election Melanchon mentioned the Chirac-Jospin cohabitation as a positive model to follow. His Jospin policy led to LePen father to be on the circuit in 2002. In 2012, Melanchon was a presidential candidate of the left front, an audience of several left parties in France, on the base of a left wing reformist platform, which was positive during the Hollande mandate, he sabotages the left front with the help of the Communist Party leadership.

Since says we had the birth of the France Insoumise we characterize as a weapon of destruction of the left with a popular Bonapartist orientation. The great art of Melanchon is to defend the Fifth Republic by pretending to have a new sixth Republic with the Constituent Assembly, which would be like those of [Hugo] Chavez a Constituent Assembly, controlled by the top not by the bottom, not from the bottom. In 2012, the electoral meetings of Melanchon were held with red flags and the song of the International in 2017 and 2022. The Melanchon meetings were held with tricolor flags, and the song of the Marseillaise. That sums things up nicely. Melanchon now dreams of being a cohabitation Prime Minister with Macron, but in in practice, it will only be a guard responsible for controlling and bring to heel or loyal opposition to His Majesty Macron. The problem with Melanchon is that he’s not like Tony Blair, Tony Benn or Jeremy Corbyn. He is not are not everyday, left wing reformist linked to the labor movement. He wants to be a one about preserving France and his greatness. And if he left on some form of organization is manipulative, anti democratic and misleading its function is to eradicate all forms of Democratic Labor Organization.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, he he decides. He decides where things go and what to do when he needs to look it up.

Olivier
Yeah, it’s a formula with historic formula coming from Leo Blum, which was the head of the Socialist Party in the 30s. Was say was able to a very Marxist speech and seeking Yeah, we are fighting for the revolution for socialism. But waiting for that moment, we are loyal.

Olivier
He rules and in favor of he’s in charge. He’s like the director, you know, the CEO, but he’s in charge. He he priest. He’s the one who administers.

And so the socialist — there were three defeats in the history of the Socialist Party in the last 40 years: At the end of Mitterand when the right came back to power in France after the defeat of Jospin in 2002. And the last blows the second hit was the way Hollande manage his mandate. He was elected after a meeting where he shouted financial [capital] are my enemies as soon as he was As he was in office, he do all what is financial [capital] wanted. And it was an anti workers and anti social politics very, very hard. And in 2016, there was a law name by the Minister of Labor, which was very, very hard, very regressive for workers. And that’s what led to the election of Macron in 2017. As a result of his of his mandate, it was the absolute traitors.

Olivier
And during the during the first mandate of Macron, the Socialist Party, didn’t organize the fight, the the counter attack, and they fell to 1.55%. It’s incredible, because during Sarkozy, the Socialist Party managed to be the effective opposition, and get whole, they get the regional majority. They get the parliament, they get the presidency. And they shit all. from, like, lavage tap again the tapping on the rock in Roman history for informs the top of the top

John Reimann
On a different track: A few years ago, the world – certainly here the United States – was kind of transfixed with the yellow vest protests in France. And in my view, was almost like a primal scream of anguish and anger over what was happening to people. And, in part, my understanding is that, that that anger burst out in the way that it did, because of the role of the union leadership, which refused to kind of really build the movement, although there had been some strikes prior to that. So I’m interested in you know, what’s happened with the yellow vest movement now, how it affected if at all the how it has an impact on the labor movement and where you see something where you see that going, or if it’s just completely gone.

Olivier
The year of the yellow vest movement fritted. Thepower of Macron. He had a very big fear. There is a sketch about there was some Saturday during some demo, there were helicopters. Ready to get off to escape Maccon from the Elysees in case of emergency. They were very, very fearful about the violence of the people. By some aspect, it was quite insurrectional, in some aspects. But it [would have] need(ed) more people but if you see during several Saturday, more than one hundred, 200,000 people ready to fight with the police on the Champs Elysees. It is incredible. It was pure social despair. And the problem is on two sides: first union labor are not ready to make revolution and they are not even ready to organize day to day resistance. And the big problem we have with unions is that they are very weak. So unions can have large audiences elector or your audiences. But in fact, the organized basis are very small. During all of the last the last five years there were strikes everywhere there are strikes for the wages, strikes against redundancy. There’s strikes everywhere strikes in public service against the closer, against the cuts but never the never never the leadership, the top of the unions is organizing the things in order to go to a big big fight.

The central fight for instance, in 2019 When Macron the attacked pensions the strike succeeded not because of the will of the leadership but because in the public transport in Paris, with the Metro workers and big workplaces with bigger industrial possibilities to action and strong base. In September, on December 5 and around that date we organized the call to action and then on December 5 we saw a real general strike it was very moving, very inspiring. And in my workplace we accomplished very big things [that] I didn’t see since 1995. But after these biggest strike on one day due to the politics of the leadership, we just have calls for isolated day of action.

So, there were some some sectors where people were striking all along like in the transport in trains. But there were no orders for a general strike everywhere. So when the when the pandemic happened in March all things stopped and Macron reintroduced is his plan against pension and now in the six coming months it will put on the on the table again. The [return of] the attacks against pensions. So we need to organize resistance and to organize fights against social attacks as soon as possible and without half measures.

So situation is that on one side Macron wins but is very weak, but he is strong if there is no opposition willing to oppose him and he’s very weak.

Olivier
He won by around 58%. But in fact, it’s 30.5% of people were on the rolls, on the electoral list. So it’s, it’s very, very weak. You have three blocs: the 30.5% for Macron,, the 27.3% le Pen. And the remaining is the weight of the extensionist. The blank voters and it’s more than 35% of the people on the role of the electorate.

The blank ballot vote was about 8%.

And the abstention rate is growing from election to election.

John Reimann
How do you see resistance a workers movement developing in this situation? What’s your perspectives for that?

Olivier
I think Macron will be very violent on social, and economics. And if we don’t respond if we don’t come back as violently as he is, we will be smashed. But for foreign people I know that France is very strange, but in fact, I don’t feel a mass fascist movement. Because LePen is a candidate to the presidential election… (not a) vote for the fascist ideas… one of the big parts of the vote is based upon racism, because the the hallmark of Le Pen family is racism, especially racism against Arab people because of the Algerian War, when the Algerian people want the independence. But it’s mainly a desperate vote against those who are in (power). What will be dangerous for for the workers movement, is if Marine LePen is able to gain a consistent parliamentary group if she was able to gain 10s of 1000s of elected councillors in the. In the local areas, if she was able to have a real organization with mass movement, yeah, that would be the shame of the Nazi Party. But it’s not that, because at each time of the local election, the National Front is not able to have a complete list. Sometimes they are getting anybody, mad people, people who are a candidate, and they never sign in for Le Pen and they find they are candidates for her. It’s very, very strange, very funny at the same time.

The main question for Macron is to succeed to build the president’s party. During his last mandate, he was relying upon the state apparatus, the police, but it it was not able to have a real president’s party. Now, because the destruction of the historical Gaullic party’s replica has been succeeded by by Macron. Sarkozy never had a public word against Macron. He often posed for picture with amicable gestures with Macron. And it’s very strange, because there will be a complete reorganization of the official parties of the Fifth Republic.

John Reimann
So if I could just backtrack a little bit: As far as the yellow vest, is there anything left of the yellow vest movement? Or has it just completely disappeared? And in relation to that, how do you see a movement of the working class developing in this situation?

Olivier
About the yellow vest what is remaining is only the most major stars, about two or three people who are very, well known in the in the media as well, but there’s not any organization left. It’s all vanished, but at the same time, the same calls will produce the same effect. And if the social anger is there, there will be a lot of fights and a lot of anger. So it all depends of the rank and find militants. If we are able to organize to generalized struggles. There will be some some hopes. But Macron is unable to pass his misery without resistance. There will be resistance. The question is how we organize it. And we make it stronger and unable to

Macron is strong from the from the lack of real opposition. If there is if it is either a real social opposition if there is, for instance, as the main problem for us, is that the left the left is going to run for the coming parliamentary election in June.

Laurent
Oh, they hope that there will be a presence and greater presence of people voting from the left… a greater number of people voting for the left for the parliamentary elections

Olivier
A come revival of the left in the parliamentary election in June. But I don’t think it will happen. Because Melanchon has a hegemonic view [which is] not the best way to make unity is that way. if you are someone who will tell you, I will give you the order, and you you must follow me.

So, the main problem is that Melanchon is going to be the, the the gatekeepers, the master of the of the loyal opposition. And and that’s a problem for us.

John Reimann
So would you expect a new movement to develop maybe similar to the yellow vests? Or is it possible that there’ll be a rebellion within the rank and file of the unions to force the unions to be more decisive out in the streets, rather than I’m not talking about through elections, or something like that?

Olivier
Objectively it is the point. The question is a political attack is a political obstacle to that. But there is a lot of Macron is rejected by people because it’s so arrogant.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, but the question is, see, the way I saw those yellow vests, people, like you said, people coming out in the street really angry, really upset, not knowing what to do. And the only thing they could think of is just coming out on the street and demonstrating, but where were they? Where were the their union leadership? How does the union leadership interfere with that movement? What is the possibility of the union leadership getting involved? Or actually organizing, mobilizing these folks

Olivier
That is a key of the situation is membership and either the militants and the local the local fighting, leadership’s are able to, to to impose a militant, combative line, we can save, we can change the situation…

The question is the outcome of the struggle between those who want to fight and those who want to disorganize us.

Unknown Speaker
Is there a movement right now in the rank and file of the unions to take over the leadership of their union?

Olivier
It’s complicated, because there is a lot of places where you can find rank and file organized by the far left, by combative people, but there is not some kind of national rank and find movement on national left wing movement or structuration. In fact, these kinds of local situations are based upon if somewhere there’s some kind of strong tradition of the Communist Party, or if there is to happen, there is a local section of a local branch of other Trotskyist groups. And so but all that is disseminated, it’s not coagulated into one national hub. And that’s the problem.

John Reimann
Here in the United States, you know, we have a similar problem with the union leadership. And and we’ve seen in a few instances, rank and file opposition groups start to develop at the local level. I think it’s inevitable that they’ll develop first at the local level, then start to come together. And part of that opposition is to fight for better contracts, and also, in some cases actually to organize unofficial strikes. And so I’m wondering if you could see something similar to that in France.

Olivier
Everywhere in France everywhere, as soon as people can, they go on strike, and they refuse to accept social setback. And the problem from many little fires, will you get to a bigger fire; you can have a sea of isolated fires anywhere, everywhere. But at the same time, it won’t be California burning summer. Right? You see what I mean?

John Reimann
I have one last question on a completely different track. First of all, would you agree that, given Le Pen’s connection with Putin, that the invasion of Ukraine hurt her in this election, that that was a factor?

 

 

Le Pen and Putin.”For anybody, Le Pen is Putin”

Olivier
For anybody, LePen is Putin. She she is bound to Russia, because they, they give money to campaign. And she’s linked to them by the money, but at the same time, a big part of the the mainstream politics in France is in favor of alliances with Russia. And it’s a whole story, going back to the Russian Franco the phone call with aerials in 1905 when the Third Republic was supporting the Tsar against the revolution. And the basis of that politics is the game of politics influence economical rivalry between France, Germany and even Britain. And as long as these rivalries are are going on, often a big part of the of the bourgeoisie in France is in favor of linking to Russia because Russia is a free market to gain raw materials and stuff like that, gas, petrol.

And so the fact that Le Pen is so openly linked to Putin is not a big problem. It’s a problem if the war is showing the bloodshed and the mass graves by by Putin’s army. But, for instance, when Francois Fillon was defeated by Marco in 2017, he left politics and he came into the Board of Managers of the big Russian groups, something like Gazprom as the former German Chancellor Schroeder did. So they are big economical lobbies for Russia alliances with Russia in France, as well as in Germany is the same problem in France and Germany.

John Reimann
Isn’t there a general mood of opposition to the invasion of Ukraine?

Olivier
The official mood is solidarity with Ukraine. And that is, what Russia is doing is wrong, it’s not good. But at the same time, the worst people are the left with the rhetoric about NATO and NATO.

John Reimann
Right, but I’m just wondering. I noticed that her vote that it was not as close as what I think at least some people were expecting. And I’m wondering if that’s in part if she lost a certain percentage of votes, because of her connection with Putin and Putin is

Olivier
The kind of people the kind of electors she’s reaching, are not affected by the question as a world of Putin. Okay.

Unknown Speaker
Well, I’ve I’ve heard I’ve read that people were saying Ukraine is not that’s not our problem. Our problem is the economy. Our problem is the world you know. Our own problems that we raise about our own life that Ukraine is not part of our and we don’t care about Ukraine that’s what I’ve heard what I’ve read only Olivia have how true is that?

Olivier
Yes, but at the same time when Putin is preparing his nuclear weapons. Anybody in Europe and in France is fearing that he gets mad and and press the red button.

Olivier
Everybody is fearing that because if a nuclear catastrophe is happening in Ukraine, we will have the the effects with the wind and other stuff. Like when Chernobyl in 1986 exploded. We had consequences. And at that time, the French government was pretending that the radiation was stopping at the frontier between Germany and France it was a big lie.

Unknown Speaker
the border will stop the radiation. Radiation will stop at the border.”

Olivier
Also, the war is affecting the economy, because Ukraine is producing a lot of grains and safflower oil.

Olivier T
he coming mandate of Macron will see a lot of things because there is no condition for economic or social peace. There’s no conditions for them now. And we’re going for some kind of conflict social conflicts. And that’s what I’m sure of.

Olivier reported on the protests in France against the Russian invasion of Ukraine

The demonstration was called by the European network for solidarity with Ukraine with United Front with some kind of left wing people like us, and some some parts of the, for the United Secretary of the Air Force International. And so in France, the main big organization who was signing was student trade unions with the left wing trade unions. And a lot of little groups like us like some and some left wing greens, people like that. And we had a demo of about 500 people, but we realized that like in San Francisco, the Consulate of Russia, is in a very rich And when you’re organizing demonstrations, in fact, there’s no people in the streets and there are only rich people and they are in the big houses and they are not on the street. But what is important is the political meaning of demonstrating towards the rational bourgeoisie. We were about 300 to 500 metres from the embassy, but the police blocked the road. And there was a big half of the demonstration who were Ukrainian people living in Paris. And there was some kind of a contingent of Syrian people And even people of Chechnya. And it was very, very combative. People were shouting. It was a struggle and about solidarity about giving arms to Ukraine about refugees. It was the the first national demo on that question in Paris. Sunday, following the 24th of February, there was official meeting in Paris, but it was very conventional with the mayor of Paris, leaders of political party, official greens and the ambassador and it was at the same time, it was a big reaction of the Ukrainian community in France with a lot of people. There were about 10,000 people, but at the same time, it was politically controlled by the mainstream party and that was the limit of the of the of the demonstration. But our demonstration was a real left solidarity campaign and we were trying to have presence at the May First demonstration in Paris and other places and all is to be built.

[Note: We also got a report from Dijon in the South of France. They had a demonstration there of about 100, the majority of whom were Syrian refugees or of Syrian descent.]

Categories: Europe, politics, Uncategorized

2 replies »

  1. Thanks John and Olivier et les autres. I suggest that you (John) edit a little before you post. The interview included this “United Secretary of the Air Force International”

    • I use otter.ai for transcription. It took me well over two hours to edit it to this point, and I lacked the time and energy to do it any further so I figured it would be better to post it as it was. If you know anybody who’d like to help editing, of if you would, please let me know.

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