Video interview with Thomas Weyts of Belgium on the European aid convoy to Ukraine. Full transcript below interview.

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John Reimann
So we’re talking with Thomas Weyts in Belgium, and he’s one of the organizers of a solidarity convoy that is headed for Ukraine. So, can you tell us, Thomas, just a little bit about that convoy? What the schedule is and what the purpose is of the convoy and so on.

Thomas Weyts
So the the idea for the international solidarity convoy to Ukraine, which will take place starting the weekend of the 20th of November, and which will will end in in Ukraine at the beginning of of December, at the end of November, the first days of December. The idea for it came up several months ago, and in fact, it was launched at first by the UGT of Catalonia, the the Trade Union Federation, the the Socialist Social Democratic Trade Union Federation of Catalonia approached the the European network in solidarity with Ukraine since a few months the international network of solidarity with Ukraine with the with the idea of organizing a real convoy. At that time, people were thinking of we we just had the flotilla to Gaza, and people were thinking bit like can’t we organize something similar to Ukraine? Now, of course, going by boat to Ukraine is almost impossible nowadays, and you also have to cross the Bosporus. It’s things which are not really easy nowadays. So, so of course we we started thinking of organizing an initiative with trucks, with cars to Europe, and now the the convoy will depart in several corners of Europe, in Barcelona, in Italy, in the south of Italy, in the UK, in in in England and and Scotland, and then passed to several European capitals and other towns to arrive together in Ukraine after about a week of having public meetings, public events in several towns in Europe. The idea of the convoy was from the very start very clearly to link up with progressive initiatives, with trade unions, with left-wing organizations, parties who are supportive of Ukraine, with our Ukrainian partners, and not only to bring material aid, humanitarian aid, which is of course much needed, and especially with the with the winter coming, which probably will be again a terrible winter for the Ukrainian people, with all the the air raids and and all the attacks going on, including on the energy facilities. So the humanitarian aid will be an important part of the convoy. But for us, it’s also important as a as a political initiative and as a way of linking trade unions, progressive movements, social movements in Europe and elsewhere in the world, because we we consider it from the beginning as an international, a global initiative with with their Ukrainian counterparts and and partners.

John Reimann
I understand that some people from the United States are coming also.

Thomas Weyts
We will have our friend Tanya Vyhovsky, who is a state senator for Vermont from the Progressive Party of Vermont, who was just re-elected a few days ago, will be joining the convoy. We will also have comrades from Brazil, from Conlutas, from the the left wing trade union joining us. We will also have friends from Quebec joining us. So there will be several people, not only from the United States, but from the Americas in general, joining us in the convoy and going with us to Ukraine, we also have support for for specific initiatives we we’re supporting from the Ukraine Solidarity Network in in the U.S. and they’re also doing a fundraiser specifically for a project which will be launched by Be LikeUs, which is an independent trade union of nurses in in Ukraine. There’s a fundraiser going on at the moment, and and it’s going well, organized by the the U.S. Ukraine Solidarity Network, so we we also to to be able to to make this visible and and and to present the the the good fundraising results to our Ukrainian friends from from Be Like Us

John Reimann
Can you talk about who you’re coordinating with inside Ukraine?

Thomas Weyts
Well, we we work with a lot of partners. First of all, we have a very good working relationship now with the the FPU, which is one of the two main trade union federations in Ukraine, we also work well together with the the different the the main left wing organizations In Ukraine, being Sotsialny Rukh, social movement, but also with the with the the anarchist friends from the solidarity collectives, both of who also have people who who joined the Ukrainian army, who are fighting arms in hand the the Russian occupation and the Russian invasion. We also work together with several more humanitarian aid projects in Ukraine because we we we also made the choice to to fundraise, not in the first place to support organizations, and they we we know they all need money for their daily functioning, but we also made a choice. There are real urgent needs in terms of generators, heating points, direct humanitarian aid for communities, villages, internally displaced people. So we we also collaborate with with a series of more NGO like organizations in in Ukraine to get this aid delivered where it’s most needed, so we’re not only working together in Ukraine with with trade unions or the left organizations. We also have have some other partners, but they they all they are all very well aware of where the aid is coming from, who’s gathering the aid, who we are, what we do with the with the with the international network, and where we are on the left in in solidarity with Ukraine. So that’s all very clear for everyone. But it’s it’s important to get the aid delivered, and it’s not always the the small left wing groups in Ukraine who who can can get the aid where it’s needed. Of course, it’s a different thing for both Ukrainian trade unions, who have several millions of members who are very present throughout the country, and they will also help deliver a lot of the aid to the places and the people in the regions where the aid is most needed.

John Reimann
How long will you be in Ukraine?

Thomas Weyts
Well, it depends as a as a convoy as a collective event. We will be in Ukraine for about five days. Several people from the several branches of the convoy will stay longer or might stay longer to go to several towns other than than Kyiv and to to deliver aid on the spot. Now, people should be aware that for security reasons we can’t always tell in advance where exactly we will be going and when, especially when we we deliver the eight on the spot, so we have to be a bit discreet on on some things before leaving. So we will be careful, and we we don’t want to take any unnecessary risks ourselves. But we, but of course, the last thing we want to do is put any of our Ukrainian partners in danger on the spot by us being careless about certain things.

John Reimann
So, in Belgium, can you talk and and in that part of Europe, in Western Europe in general, can you talk a little bit about what is the general attitude towards the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Thomas Weyts
I think most of the people and and all opinion polls show this as well. The majority of of the people, ordinary people, normal people, and the the big majority of societies in Europe are opposed to this invasion, are very hostile towards Putin, are worried a lot about all kinds of Russian provocations and and small attacks also going on in in several quite a lot European countries. Now, in several of our societies, of course, there’s also on the lefta campist presence, and it’s stronger in some countries, mainly in the south of Europe, but not only than in other countries. It’s it’s it’s all but completely marginal. For example, in Scandinavia or even in the UK, it has an impact in some layers of the the labor movement, but it’s really a minority, politically and in in broader society. Where all of these has an impact is inside the left, inside the labor movement, where the attitude in most countries, again with the exception of of some Southern European countries, where the the whole Stalinist influence in the in the left and the labor movement is is still stronger. It has an impact in the sense that, like in a lot of countries, for example, the the the apparatuses, the the bureaucracy of the of the trade unions, they they want to avoid the difficult debates, the hard discussions, and the hard decisions. So there’s an impact. “Ukraine, okay, it is a debate. So let’s keep quiet about it,” (is their attitude). And even even in some countries where they give support to the Ukrainian trade unions, for example, they tend not to discuss this. They give money, but they don’t say they give money. They don’t write they give money. If you ask them, they will say, “Yeah, we give money,” and and it’s true they gave money. And in that sense, there there’s this impact, but in general, we also like like in in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world, you see a lot of campism and, yeah, bullshit on social media. But you always have to ask what how many of these are bots, how many of these are trolls? How many of these are real people? And sometimes it’s much harder on social media, for example, than it is in real life. In real life, you won’t meet many people openly supporting Russia or supporting Putin, or then of course another thing is, and it’s it’s very deep in Europe is of course a general, a deeply rooted in the past old and often very progressive pacifism, which is very present, including in the in the trade union movement on the left, and this pacifism now sometimes plays a negative role as well when we’re talking about Ukraine and and the right of the Ukrainian people for self defense, but it’s something separate from from the real campism. Of course, a lot of the real campists hide themselves between some kind of fake pacifism, but it’s it’s it’s not identical. It’s it’s not the same phenomenon

John Reimann
Here in the United States, the pacifism and what you call campism, is just really apologists for Putin, they’re pretty much one and the same, maybe because you know there’s never been a war fought on U.S. soil since since 1812. So a kind of general anti-war movement, anti-war sentiment, probably is not as strong here. But one question is if you take the AFD in Germany or Reform UK in Britain, those are like the far right wing. They both have a strong pro-Russian element in them. And just like the Republicans, just like Trump does here, and also people like Tucker Carlson. So, isn’t there that right wing tendency to support Russia?

Thomas Weyts
Yes, we can we can say that A lot of the important far right parties in Europe, they certainly had their good relations with with Russia and Putin for many years. Like they also have their good relations nowadays with with the with the MAGA movement and and Trump andwhole MAGA Trumpist movement in in the U.S. Now, of course, at the beginning of the the the full scale invasion in 22 in Europe, all parties had to be careful, because because the general sentiment in society was so overwhelmingly of support for Ukraine, including in a lot of countries, the far right countries had to be careful, and they couldn’t openly take a pro-Russian pro-Putin position at that time. Now of course, including with the changes in the U.S. and and the return to power of Trump, who wants a deal on on the back of the Ukrainian people with Putin, who is ideologically very close, the a lot of these far right parties who felt they had to be careful in ’22 became much less careful in their support for Putin and Russia and an agreement, a quick agreement, even if it’s on the back of the Ukrainian people. The last few years, it certainly is a case for a party like (National Rally) in France. It’s it’s a case for yeah. AFD [in Germany] was a bit for a long time was an outlier on the far right in Europe because it continued in a quite consistent way to take a pro-Russian position. The same goes for in Holland. The main, the biggest far-right party was in government of Wilders. They accepted the continuing aid for for Ukraine as a condition to enter the government to the previous government in Holland. There’s a party even more to the far right in Holland which takes an open pro-Russian position. It’s Bodes PVV. They are now gaining in support in the polls, in the opinion polls, and they they are openly they they always have an open position of support for Russia.

John Reimann
What’s the attraction around what issues are they gaining support?

Thomas Weyts
Well, the the other far right parties from Wilders, they were in government, government which, except for an even harsher policy on on immigration, didn’t deliver much as was to be expected. They also continued supporting Ukraine, so there there is there is a fringe of the electorate in in Holland, like there is in Germany, which clearly wants to stop all for Ukraine. So it plays a role, but I think the main the main thing of their attraction now, the relative attraction, because they’re still a minor party in the polls. Is that yeah the the far right party which was in government didn’t deliver enough for their electorate in terms of racist policies etc. I will see in in France with (National Rally), they had old links, including financial links with with Russia. We’ll see. They felt the upswing of Trumpism, so they took a more and more clear position against all all support, not only military support for Ukraine. In France, there’s also the problem that on the left, on the far left, Melanchon and and La France Insoumise also has a very weak campist position on Ukraine. At least Melanchon, his party is more divided in reality, but Melanchon himself has a has a campist position. So there, there’s a bigger space in political life to be in the open about opposing aid for Ukraine, which is not always the same as being clearly pro-Putin and clearly pro-Russia, at least in in in the the discourse.

John Reimann
So you know, there’s been big protest movements in France, in Spain. I think in where is it Serbia also. How has that affected the general political discourse? Is it different in every country, or is there some things in common? Concluding, has that had any effect on the issue of Ukraine?

Thomas Weyts
Well, it it it probably has, but it’s difficult to watch in the sense that you know on on the one hand the underlying issues are very much the same in most countries, and maybe with with the exception of countries like Serbia and another exception, maybe Albania, where we had a very big movement as well. But of course, iin most countries like France, there’s also been important social movement in the in the Spanish state. In my own country, in Belgium, where we will have again national trade union demonstration very soon as well, where there’s also school strikes and protests going on in Wallonia and Brussels, but also in in Germany there are movements. The underlying issues, of course, have everything to do with austerity policies and with with harsh neoliberal reforms, with austerity politics, with climate change. We had a very hot summer in Europe, clearly caused in part by by climate change, and this will only get worse the next years. So there was no direct link with Ukraine. Of course, in all of our countries, we have women saying with a with a very simple and too simplistic slogan of “welfare, not warfare,” and mainly coming from from the the campist left intervening in these movements, being present, sometimes having a leading role in in you know in some of these movements. A bit the discourse of we’re paying for Ukraine, while this money should go to allocation. Now, of course, if you look, I mean, it’s not not difficult. In fact, if you want to to to get through that discourse, because if you look at the guts, and if you look at what our governments are spending in aid for Ukraine, and then I’m not talking only about military aid, but I’m I’m first of all talking about humanitarian aid, financial aid, support for the Ukrainian refugees, and don’t forget we have we have more than 4 million Ukrainian refugees in in Western Europe, and especially in in in some countries like Poland, Germany, where it’s about 1 million or even more than 1 million refugees, but if you look at the real aid given by by our governments, it’s only it’s a small part of of the military budget spending, including if with with governments like, for example, in Belgium, who say we want to deliver on the 5% to to butter to to to butter up Donald G. Trump, it’s it’s a percent of the total military spending, and and and and it is and and the money going to Ukraine is only a a fraction of of the the total spending in in in social services, in education, in environment, university. it, and the cuts which which we are having are of course much harder than than than Ali. It’s it’s much more than the amounts of money going to Ukraine. So there is no relationship, but you have to explain it. And of course, it’s easy to to go on this. There’s money for new new frigates or new new airplanes for the army and not for education. But if you look at the the real numbers involved, it’s like always, the the real question is who controls the spending, who decides on the spending, and who pays. Is it the working working class people paying, or is it is it capitalists paying? Is it the employers paying? And there, of course, these these austerity measures and these austerity politics were there decades before the before the full-scale invasion in Ukraine, and and and and the politics were were happening for years already. So the “welfare, not warfare spending” is a nice slogan, but it doesn’t reflect the reality.

John Reimann

You know, on that last issue, here in the United States, we have similar slogans, and in fact, even some of the left that does support Ukraine has adopted similar slogans. For example Adul El Sayed in Michigan has talked a bit about the money that we’re spending for wars abroad, should be spent here at home, you know, for welfare and so on. Now he’s referring to the money that goes to Israel, but you see how that can be used also. And I’ve seen comments from him where he does in fact support Ukraine, but by posing the matter that way, you know it’s going to be difficult for him. And that’s just one individual, you know. But that’s an example.

Thomas Weyts
We have this kind of demands in several European countries as well, of course. Now, the U.S. is different, for example, in the sense that it still sends a lot of military aid to Israel.

Most European countries nowadays don’t. There’s one major country in Europe still sending military aid to Israel, and that’s Germany, and a very minor percentage Italy. But most European countries, including France, including Belgium, including countries where discussing Israel and the relationship with Israel is is still very hard, like like Holland, they don’t send huge amounts of military aid to Israel. Basically, since many years, there is in reality, at least on on direct weapon export to Israel.

There is a kind of embargo. Sometimes clear, sometimes less clear. And but there is what what there is, and that’s another thing. There’s in some countries there’s import importation of Israeli weapons, including, for example, air defense specific things is the case in in countries like Denmark, for example, where they sent, and there you have a problem. Of course, in in in real life, these are countries which did give quite important, relatively speaking, quite important military support to Ukraine, and some of these countries replaced some of their weapon systems with Israeli weapons.

Thomas Weyts
We should have real discussions on military issues on the left as well. Simply, there are quite a lot of people from the pacifist movements, from from the campists, but not only there. It’s broader. We have we have a lot of incidents with most probably because it’s not always proven Russian drones all over military bases in Europe, but also over over airports, over civilian airports, over ports, etc. How do you react? Do you just some people say this is all propaganda to to help us buy more weaponry in the U.S. and and having and and supporting the European weapon industry, this is all propaganda. These things are real in in Poland, in Romania, in Estonia. Russian drones landed or got shot down. We have a lot of incidents with people might have seen it: refrigerators in in supermarkets, chains of supermarkets all all over Western Europe. The refrigerators, which are all run with a centralized internet connection. The refrigerators were shut down by a massive cyber attack for several days. Several chains of supermarkets all over Europe. Now, okay, it it might be in theory it might be one hacker who who did this. No-one claimed it except one pro-Russian group claimed it. But probably this is state an operation done at least with state support, and it will not have been done by Israel. It might have been done by by China or Iran, but it’s most probably done by Russian supported hackers. These are real incidents with with real impact on on people’s life. So you can’t just say “no problem. This is all propaganda to for more more military spending.” You should know in Belgium we have the the second biggest port of Europe, the port of Antwerp, which is a main main hub between between German industry and and export abroad and and container import. It’s the main container port of Europe, biggest one. Belgium doesn’t have one anti-aircraft gun, not one. We we have the headquarters of NATO in Brussels. We have the European Parliament in Brussels. We have the the the main offices of the European Union in Brussels and and Belgium has no means zero means of air defense except sending sending airplanes in the air and that’s that’s the only the only thing there is F-15s to to shoot down drones You can say even you can be very much on the left and very pacifist, but if tomorrow there’s a there’s a there are 10 drones attacking attacking Antwerp airport, there’s nothing. Right. There’s nothing. There’s nothing to to defend anti against 10 drones attacking a Antwerp airport, and I’m not even talking about NATO headquarters or whatever. It’s not a building that interests me, but it’s also a very Brussels is also a very crowded town, so an attack on on the the NATO headquarters will certainly lead to civilian casualties as well in a town like Brussels.

John Reimann
So we can see how the issue of Ukraine and the Russian invasion of Ukraine, how it impacts all of politics in in Europe and also in the United States, actually, and the the defeat of of the Trump cult just a couple days ago, that was also a massive defeat for Putin as well.

Thomas Weyts
I certainly agree, and I must say what I see for a long time now, at least here. Of course, we have people supporting Ukraine who come from the right, from the center right in European terms, and even further from the right than that, but with with the the renewed coming to I mean the the renewed presidency of Trump, people easily even people who might have had sympathy for Trump and and parts of Trump’s politics very much broke with with it about Ukraine and and and when when we noticed what the how again he was dealing with Putin and With Russia, it also includes most of the people in the Ukrainian communities. In I know in the U.S., for example, or in Canada, a lot of the older Ukrainian diaspora supported the Republicans or support the Reich.

In Europe, amongst the refugees, I can imagine that the people and most of the we have, of course, older Ukrainian expat communities in most European countries, but the the main Ukrainian presence now are people who fled the war. I know that the outspoken left-wing people, amongst them, are probably in a in a very very very small minority, and we we know most of those people. But on the other hand, I can tell you that amongst this all these Ukrainian people support for Trump or sympathy or illusions in Trump compared to what they might do for Ukraine, for compared to Biden, and very quickly dissipated, and we, including leading to to protests, and we in Brussels we we protested now twice with Ukrainian people in front of the U.S. embassy. We did so in November. We did so again a few weeks ago. There were protests in in quite a lot of European countries in front of U.S. embassies with Ukrainian people, with Ukrainian associations with us from from the INSU. This would have been unthinkable four years ago or three years ago. That that the Ukrainian associations, except for a handful of people, would have gone protested with us in in front of the U.S. embassies, and and now it’s it’s a case and and people support it and and including in Ukraine all sympathy for for for for Trump or yeah even the US is has has gone amongst ordinary people the common it’s it’s it has disappeared and and and and and every lingering illusion there might have been in the U.S. supporting Ukraine and or the U.S. government changing it, giving more aid to Ukraine, etc. Under Trump has long, long, long one.

John Reimann
Right. So, thank you very much for your time, Thomas. And I really, I hope that we can stay in touch and keep up with the convoy as it proceeds through Europe, and maybe find some way to link up in Ukraine in a way that won’t endanger people.

Thomas Weyts
We we will certainly do our best, and we we we will have a lot of public meetings on on the way. We will have a public event in Brussels, in Berlin, in Marshall, in Lyon, in front of the European Parliament in Strasbourg, departure event in Barcelona, several events in Italy, and we will do our best to to to live stream or to record most of them. And and of course, when we’re in Ukraine, we will we will also make films and documentaries, etc. But we we cannot live stream them, for example, for for security reasons, but but but that’s for sure, and we will we will we will do this while we’re on the on the road. And in the meantime, I I would also ask all all friends and supporters in the in the U.S. to to help with our fundraiser, and we we collected a lot. We already collected about $50,000 for our global fundraiser. There are several specific national projects we we’re supporting, which which are also already raised for about $50,000. But we aim for more, and the next few weeks we can we can still we we hope for about 100,000 euros, which is

John Reimann Where can where can people from the United States send
donations to?

Thomas Weyts
Send donations to: https://www.paypal.com/donate?campaign_id=5YZP4QPBCD3FL