The Ukraine Socialist Solidarity Campaign recently held a zoom discussion with Eugene, who lives in Kiev. Below is the recording plus a transcript.

Eugene Bronstein
So I hope that I will have electricity today on our meeting. But it disappeared just in minutes before the meeting started. So now I’m in a completely dark, flat. And it’s unusual for holidays. Because since holiday started, light was always out. how to say, was always enabled since Christmas. As you know, we here have like two Christmases because bigger part of Christians Of The World celebrated in on December 25. But in some parts of the world, it’s celebrated by on January 7. And Ukraine as a European country wants to join other worlds and celebrate it on 25. But a lot of people still celebrating celebrating January 7, so we have like, two, two holidays. Also, we have new year, so someone who could decide when to have the electricity decided to make holidays for us, like more happy. But as we see, light disappeared again. What can I tell you about Kiev. I’m living in Kief for a long time, before that, also, I lived in Bucha you could know the city. Now, unfortunately, I want you to know about Bucha. In in some other way. But we have what we have. So in Kiev if we all used already used to black out a lot of shops, coffee shops, or -how this goes – markets supermarkets connects to generators. I don’t know how, how you call it an English but this big engine where you put diesel or gas or something like that, and they produce electricity. So sometimes even during blackout, such shops still working. And that’s good for us. Definitely. Also, there is like a joke among the Ukrainians that we say that before blackouts, we didn’t realize how much things we don’t need. Because you’re in common situation you’re working in your apartment and see a lot of electrical stuff and think, “how could I live without this” let’s say mixer. But then blackout appeared. And we all realize we actually don’t need it. But in general, Ukrainians still stay strong. We will know how to say stay strong. Of course, it’s inconvenient to live in blackout or in how to say often in often block blackouts. But we still believe in bright future We still believe in victory or at least in believing the end of the war. So I could say that yes, it’s inconvenient. It’s disturbing us. But in general, more or less, it’s okay. You could try you could try to cut off electricity for let’s say 10 hours. For a few days maybe and you will understand that in general. It’s not as bad as you could think about it. Maybe you have some questions.

Cheryl Zuur
I’ve got a question, Eugene. How did people respond to Zelensky? His speech to the United States Congress? And of course, well, him winning the military package as well.

Eugene
I’m not sure about which speech you’re talking. Because there is a lot of speeches and I can help to mix up them. Could you please remind me what he said?

Cheryl Zuur
It was the most recent one, which was, it was the week before Christmas. And it was covered here. I mean, on all of the television stations, it was a really big deal. And it was certainly, you know, headlines and newspapers and things like that. And I think people in this country responded very positively, to it. I mean, we understand what Zelensky is, as a neoliberal capitalist politician, but he’s a very powerful speaker. And he said a lot of really interesting things that, well, for us, I think, in particular, were interesting and important in regards to Ukraine, and his relationship also with the United States. So Ukraine’s relationship to the United States. So it’s fine if you don’t have any comments on it, but it was the most recent one that I think people were watching it in Ukraine as well.

Ted Zuur
It was a speech in English to the United States Congress.

Eugene
Honestly, I don’t actually remember what he said. But I can have to say I can guess that he said, as described about your relationships with not only un but maybe in general with Western worlds about the weapon about victory, and, and so on, I guess he talked about something like that. But in general about reaction, I could say that any Zelinsky speeches will be will be reacted. Very good. From Ukrainians. As you said, he is a good speech speaker. And he is popular as never in Ukraine. Everyone love him. Or at least like, because even even we as leftist, we don’t like him in general. It’s obvious why. But we appreciate his his actions. Because in general, we hope that we believe that he acting, acting good in such circumstances.

John Reimann
So I’ve got I’ve got two questions. First of all, Eugene, can you give us some kinds of things, like what people are saying, like, if you go into a coffee shop, let’s say or wherever with some friends, just like, what kinds of things are people talking about? That’s my first question. My second question is, as far as Zelensky’s party, his political party, I recently saw a commentary about corruption within the within his party, and the person who was commenting on it, someone named, I believe was Denis Davydoff. He was saying, “look, it’s not Zelensky. I support him, but his party”. They were talking about the influence of real estate developers and so on, within his party, and if you’re familiar with that issue, if you could comment on that also.

Eugene
Okay, first question: Maybe it could be hard to understand how it feels to live in such war. During almost a year, because we all use to eat and then in general, we do not even talk about war or politics or something like that. And if you will, we use it in key if some coffee shops that I often with it, you can even not understand that there is a war in that country. Of course, people talking about their relationships, their work, their, you know, holidays, and so on. But sometimes you could hear that they discuss some, some events, they discuss some operations, you know, that. Unfortunately, I came to without electricity use google translator…. But mostly they just discuss their private life. I could say that. And the second question about corruption. Corruption in Ukraine is a big problem for for common Ukrainians. And if you could check it, I don’t remember who who makes a survey about corruption. I guess it’s Amnesty International, but I don’t remember how does it cause. So people think that corruption is a big deal. is a big problem. And and we often hear about some corruption activity from politics. And even if we hear about some huge, extremely big corruption, we all used to it and do not in generally do not discuss they do not discuss it. A lot. But if we say about like press or media, I can’t can describe how they are talked about the corruption in Zelensky’s party, because I do not read Ukrainian media. And because of that, I can’t I can’t answer unfortunately. Okay, that’s, that’s, this is it.

Mudassir
So what I was seeing is recently that how is the situation in the capital? And like, how are the people reacting to the right for many videos of them celebrating Christmas? Like how frequent are these blackouts? Like, like, on a daily basis, or it goes on an alternative basis? And the next point is, like, will you pre make a weaker quote unquote, settlement with Russia? Or, like, will they like, try to push eastwards? Because Magno there and all those militias that they like, how are they going to, like convince the Russians to come on this site? Like, from 2014? That’s been the biggest issue. So how are they going to convince the Russians if like, Zelensky having a plan on easy is he going to say like, Okay, after is still that I he may not want to continue the fight? That’s the point. Because Russia is very insistent on the like, it’s very contradictory country. So how is Ukraine stance on the war now? Because [unclear] Is not that far off. So so like, what’s the plan with regarding to Iran’s intervention and like how Ukrainians view that apart from Christmas celebrations, of course, and like things, that’s my point. And the next is how do the religious people view the war in Ukraine? Like how are they viewing it? Like God bad or like what? When that’s the only thing Thank you.

Eugene
Okay, about first point, about celebrating There was a huge discussion about Christmas tree. Because, you know, I don’t know how it works in the United States, but here every year, because New Year is our main holiday in the year, not Christmas. The city installs a big Christmas tree with some Christmas lights on it and so on. And there was a huge discussion about “do we need such a tree now? Because there is a lot of days of blackout? And this Christmas tree needs a lot of electricity. And should we use it in such way? Or is it better to use it in some, some some another way?” And so on but political, the mayor of the of Keefe decided to install it. So now we have Christmas tree, have Christmas lights on it and so on. And he said, “We will not let Russia steal our Christmas or our new year” or something like that. And about this, if I understood the second point, right? It was about date of the Christmas. Yeah. I am sorry, because my English is not as good as you know, no,

Mudassir
no, no, no, my point is like, what about what about the war? Because 24th February will come soon? No. 24th February of next year. So what is the plan for it? Will Ukraine push to get back in territories or what they’re planning to do and what leftists think of it? Because unions were also not happy with Zelensky policies and things like that. So that was my next question. And inflate the question of unions. But all leftists are viewing it. Like if he got out like that variable of what, that’s what I wanted.

Eugene
So, about the end of the war. I didn’t know I’ve seen some kind of analytics from I guess, some American institution about scenarios of the end of the war. And there was like five, there was five scenarios. And it it was like all possible scenarios. So they say to work and soon with victory of Ukraine working and soon, not soon, not as soon with victory of Ukraine, and the same soon or not as soon with victory of Russia. And the scenario was like the war with will how to say stop without without a winner. So I don’t know. I think that this question is like, really personal for for Ukrainians, cause you can talk with a lot of us and every people will answer you about it in in their own way. They have the results, your own analytics and so on. And about leftists I’ve seen some how to say rebellion intentions or something like that moods, rebellion moods, but not among leftists, but the modern army Ukrainian army because sometimes some, some parts of we don’t like how generals acting, what they ordering and so on. And sometimes they like protested, but in a very peaceful way. They like filming videos and saying that they want to change something or something like that. But leftists we are like acting as we acted in the first month is we’re just collecting money, spending money on different things. humanitarian needs. And even not only humanitarian, because a lot of leftists are in army and sometimes they need some deployment, they need drones or clauses or army equipment or something like that. And I could say, I can say more like about social movement, our organization. Here, nothing change it since the war started, I can say, but sometimes we protesting some particular decisions. For example, the last decision was that our parliament approved a law, which make impossible to cite Russian sources in scientific publications. So we can’t cite, for example, Lenin for now can’t cite at all.

Ted Zuur
My question is similar, but more specifically. It seems like the preferred end to the war in the Biden administration is a diplomatic settlement, where [Ukraine] recovers Donetsk and Luhansk that gives up Crimea to Russia. And this is speculative because they may never get those negotiations. But do you think that could be political acts politically acceptable to people in Kyiv?

Eugene
Yeah. Oh this is a hard one. I guess is that it depends. For example, for me, victory means the situation that was before the this war started. Even without Crimea and Donbass I will consider it as victory. I think I can say that. The only unacceptable for Ukrainians and of the world is like, if Zelensky for example, just will will just say like, “okay, Crimea is Russia and Donbass is Russia.” And this will not be accepted by Ukrainians and I can predict, like, new revolution that could start because of it, but I think that Zelensky understands that, and he will never stop considering Crimea as a part of Ukraine. And, and also, I can I think that returning of Crimea and Donbass is like the most..

Eugene
…. Most of Ukrainians want to take back Crimea take back Donbass and so on. But in general, Ukrainians are extremely patriotic. I think that you couldn’t imagine how patriotic Ukrainians are. And even the smallest possible victory in this war will be like celebrated as as the biggest victory so some think like that. So I think I can say is that the minimum that Ukrainians want is situation that was before war started. And the maximum is take back Crimea and Donbass. Yeah, something like that. And I guess that Zelensky understands that.

Stanley Heller
As you probably know, we do not represent the majority of the left in the United States. And among the, say, liberals and pacifist, every once in a while they bring out a fellow named Yuliazhenko. I have no idea if I’m saying that name right. I just put the name in the chat. And they bring him out as an important political figure in Ukraine. He’s the leader of the pacifist. As far as I can tell, he represents no one. I mean, maybe himself and a few others. So my question is, is are there groups of any size in Ukraine? who oppose using weapons to defend Ukraine?

Eugene
I could say that there is definitely such group present. Such group definitely present in Ukraine, because Ukraine is like 40 Millions of people and you can find here group with any imaginable point of view. But I could say that I have never heard it from some kind of media, I have never heard such ideas, such point of view in personnel, conversations. So such growth, definitely sound were present in Ukraine. But you, you should try hard to find them. Because, first of all, it is extremely unpopular point of view. And the second, it’s like an, like illegal, I could say is that, if you will say on some public place, that you want Ukraine to stop defending itself, the best that can happen to you after that is arrest. But I guess that someone from like a civilians will come to you or find you and beat you, or even kill? It’s possible, of course. So maybe there is such a group there, but they are absolutely silent. And no one knows about them. And the only reason why I say that there is such group is because 40 millions of Ukrainians and you when you can find here, any any idea present?

Cheryl Zuur
First off, Eugene, we did get a copy of the petition protesting that decision in Parliament to censor any Russian sources of scientific information, I think I think a number of us have signed it, and we are promoting it, because that’s a very bad turn.

Eugene
Thank you.

Cheryl Zuur
So the second thing is, is that there was an article written by [unclear]. I think they’re both Social Movements, andnd it was about, you know, negotiations in this moment. And the first paragraph talked about how Zelensky had announced that any negotiations with Russia would be public, and completely transparent. And I thought that was very unusual, because normally, in situations like this or with unions, negotiations are always done behind closed doors where bad deals are made for the people. So if that actually happens, that would be an extraordinary example. And I thought it was interesting that that was the first time I’d heard that. The last thing is, and we’ve promoted that article as well because it answers all the questions of the of the campists about their, you know, terrible position on peace and negotiations. But the third thing is is so we are working actively to plan solidarity activities for February 24. Maybe the war will be over by then I don’t think so. And the center of our perspective is international working class solidarity with not just Ukraine. But we’re also hoping to reach out to the Iranian community, Belarusians and others to hopefully join in whatever kinds of things we can organize. But I wanted to ask you, from your perspective and the perspective of Social Movement, we’re not in a situation to really raise a lot of money to send funds for medical supplies and things like that. I wish we were, but what we can do is bring the attention to Ukraine and why it matters to ordinary working class Americans. And I just wanted to find out if you had any comments about what what is important to you, and to social movement for us to say to people about Ukraine, and then the future are those solidarity activities in February.

Eugene
I guess that the main point in general is like, give Ukraine, more money, give Ukraine more weapon, and so on. Cause it could sound like pro government slogans, but it is not. Because we, like common Ukrainians, struggling without Europeans or Western money and Western weapons. Because if we have enough, I don’t know how this goes a or defense weapon. This stiff that shoot down the rockets, and drones and so on. If we have enough such stuff, we can end the blackouts we can live normally we can go to work, as usual and so on, because a lot of people lost their business, small business, I mean, of course, small business, because it’s a big business do not lost anything. A lot of workplaces were lost, people lost their job, in general, people do not have money to live, and all of all of this bad stuff, because of not enough weapon to shoot rockets, drones, and so on. And especially a lot of people just died. They can’t even go to work. Now, even with weapons. I mean, even if Europe will give some more weapons, these people will not go to war go to their families never, never again. And this is in general, the main point. But I can say that our like a main goal, we understand that Western society, like tired to hear about Ukraine, because almost a year and all newspapers talking about “Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine,” and a lot of people just tired. And I think that the best thing you could could do is try to find another way to make politicians and common Western people to be interested in Ukraine again. Also, I have a few comments about your comments about this Russian sources in science: I could say that I’m studying in the most patriotic University in Ukraine. It’s that calls Kiev-Mohyla Academy. And in this university, we do not use first of all Russian language at all, we use only Ukrainian and sometimes English. And our professors do not allow it to give us like Russian sources. They can give us only Ukrainian or English sources but this petition about which I said signed by the creator of this academy and it was like a shock for me I’ve seen his say nation Just just before our conversation and I was like shocked, because even he, the biggest patriot in Ukrainian education and Ukrainian society do not support this law, this new law, which prohibits Russian speaking sources. Yeah, this is it.

Ted Zuur
Just in regard to your remarks: Yesterday, Sergey Lavrov said the Ukrainian proposal, new proposal for peace talks is off the table. Unless they recognize that the four areas Russia has annexed are part of Russia. I put a link to a TAS article about this in the chat. So all of the old Putin apologists, arguments were just shot out of the water by Lavrov.

Stanley Heller
Just very quickly. Eugene, you said the petition was signed by and then I couldn’t get what you said. Was it the head of the university?

Eugene
Yeah. He’s like a creator of the academy, in which I’m studying. And this academy from the start, it was created, like a few years after Ukraine gained independency.