Israel’s political crisis has many aspects, some of which are unique to Israel and some of which the world has in comon. Here, Oaklandsocialist interviews Ofer Neiman, long time Palestinian rights activist in Israel, about the political crisis there. Among other things, Ofer explains how the increasing attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank lie in the background to this crisis. Ofer also explains the relationship between what is happening in the West Bank and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Below is a slightly edited version of the interview and below that is the transcript of the full, unedited interview.

John Reimann
So first of all, Ofer, maybe you could just tell us a little bit about your political background.

Ofer Neiman
I’m a Jewish Israeli citizen. I live in West Jerusalem. I’m active, and have been active for quite a long time, in the BDS movement, in a group called Boycott from Within. It’s a group of Israeli citizens who support Palestinian civil society’s call for boycott, divestment, and sanctions to end Israeli human rights violations towards the Palestinians. I’ve also been active in some other groups.

John Reimann
Yeah, we first met through support for Ukraine. So that’s a whole other issue.

Ofer Neiman
As we all know, probably, there’s quite the rift in the international left around the Ukrainian issue, as well as the Syrian issue. And personally, I strongly…I think both of us strongly support Ukraine. And that’s something we may discuss a bit later, if you wish.

John Reimann
Right. So of course, here in the United States and elsewhere, the protests in Israel have been quite a bit in the news. And maybe you could just explain exactly what’s happening. And what are the immediate issues that are generating these protests?

Ofer Neiman
So the current crisis revolves around a broad sweeping initiative by the Netanyahu government to overhaul the judicial system. And it basically amounts to a soft coup. They are trying to weaken the Israeli Supreme Court. And their main objective is to make it easier for any Israeli Government to treat Palestinians even more harshly, to annex Palestinian territories. But there are other components: this proposed reform would probably marginalize other population groups within Israel. It’s important to stress that even with the current supreme court that we have, of course, Israel is not a democracy. It’s an apartheid state.

The supreme court is arguably the main pillar actually, giving a stamp of approval to the apartheid that we have here. But it can still apply some breaks – checks and balances, if you will – against sweeping initiatives by the Israeli government, especially Likud governments, such as the current one. And this is a problem for the right wing that’s currently in power in Israel. And they have a broad range of amendments and proposed laws which they are trying to enact right now. The main issue, and this has already passed in parliament, is an amendment to abolish the Supreme Court’s authority to annul various decisions by the government for being unreasonable. The right wing believes that the Israeli Supreme Court should not have the power to overrule government decisions and disqualify or annul. based on their being unreasonable. This was the amendment that was passed in parliament several days ago. And there have been major…there’s ongoing protest against the entire reform but this week, that’s the focal point.

John Reimann
There’s two issues that are being portrayed in the media here as being the central issues, as far as weakening and Supreme Court. One is to do with the ultra orthodox, and their wanting to, you know, have increased the privileges, and so on. I forget exactly how that’s connected. And the other is Netanyahu’s legal troubles.

Ofer Neiman
So this coup is being driven primarily by right wing elites. You could say, many of them are religious, not ultra orthodox, [but rather] a right wing Zionist, partly religious elite, with strong connections to the US, we can say more about that later, to the Republican Party, and to right wing circles in the US. They wish to change… again, so it’s not just about the Palestinians, they wish to change the face of Israeli society, to make it more conservative, more right wing.

It also has to do with one of the reasons that Netanyahu supports this reform. First of all, it’s his own political circle. But he also has his ongoing trial in mind, and his attempt to sort of break free, somehow force the courts to rule in his favor. And there is also [an attempt to force more religious legislation], within the coalition that we have right now which is a right wing ultra-orthodox coalition. Naturally, in the past two or three decades, the ultra orthodox have also become very right wing, but they have their own interests. And some of it has to do with expanding the applicability of Jewish religious law in Israel. In Israel, there is no separation of state and religion. For example, typically, if you want to get married in Israel, you have to get married in accordance with Jewish religious laws and Jewish religious courts. And of course, they do not rule according to modern law, they rule in accordance with halacha – Jewish law. And as we know, any traditional religious code tends to be or is likely to be discriminatory towards some groups, towards women, for example, and sometimes towards minorities, and the ultra-orthodox…For example, they wish to expand the authority of Jewish religious courts, the family courts, in matters of marriage, divorce, custody. And even beyond that, some of these conservative circles would also like to make it more difficult for women to have abortions in Israel. So again, you can see the connections, the similarities between Israel and the US.

Also, anything that has to do with these conservative ultra orthodox people, of course, they do not accept LGBTQ rights, they are against that. actually, our Minister of Finance. who’s not really an ultra orthodox, Bezalel Smotrich – he is quite famous by now – he’s a settler, and years ago, he organized, in response to the Pride Day parade in Jerusalem, something called I think it was called “The Beast parade”, marching donkeys in Jerusalem to sort of argue that LGBTQ freedom amounts to bestiality. So, yeah, this gives you sort of an example about the mindset of conservative right wing, religious people here in power.

John Reimann
Would you agree that the Court Acts to kind of legitimize Israeli apartheid to legitimize the increase of the settlements and so on. But in order to legitimize it, they have to kind of how can you put it, minimize some of the more blatant aspects at times? Would you agree with that with that description?

Ofer Neiman
Absolutely, I mean, the role of the Israeli Supreme Court, in this charade of occupation and apartheid and legitimizing them. They’re the main force. That’s the liberal institution which has to speak the language of international law, and provide a semblance of the rule of law. And that’s what has made the Supreme Court actually so powerful and effective in supporting Israeli apartheid, perhaps more than belligerent, bellicose Israeli politicians. The idea is the Supreme Court has to be perceived by the international community as an enlightened democratic institution, which applies checks and balances to Israeli far reaching Israeli government policies. In reality, this Court has given its stamp of approval to the construction of settlements, to the deportation of Palestinians.We have for example, Palestinians accused of various offenses, including a prominent Palestinian American activist, Dr. Mubarak, Awad who organized, nonviolent resistance to Israel, Israel’s occupation in the 1980s, he was deported. And as far as I can recall, the Supreme Court gave its stamp of approval to this deportation. So there’s an irony here, because the Supreme Court is actually not a friend, to human rights activists and to the Palestinians. It’s very powerful in the dispossession of Palestinians. And in a way, if the Israeli government tries to act against the courts, Israel is going to lose a major shield against action abroad – sanctions, lawsuits. Once the Israeli Supreme Court is, is no longer perceived as a bastion of democracy and human rights, then we’re getting some of the protesters are saying that design is protesters are saying we are going to be exposed to lawsuits abroad, without the Israeli Supreme Court, in its current form.

John Reimann
That’s really interesting. You know, I sometimes have the impression that maybe major sectors of the Israeli capitalist class wish that, you know, the more blatant aspects of apartheid and the increased settlements and so on, the occupation – that they are not in favor of it, because among other things, it makes it difficult for them to engage in trade and finance and investment in that region. And that in some ways the court represents represents that, that that view. What are your thoughts about that?

Ofer Neiman
Yeah, liberal Israelis who tend to be more affluent, typically, those living in Tel Aviv area, most of them do not care so much for the ‘67 occupation beyond the green line. They have their own prosperity in the Tel Aviv area in other parts of Israel within the ‘67 borders, not the West Bank. Yeah, so they would like to see a softer occupation, and many of them would actually be willing to dismantle quite a few settlements. And there’s more than that. It’s actually sort of a tribal and introduced struggle for hegemony within your society. So they would also like to weaken the nominal right wing and the settlers in order to increase their own power within his Israeli society. These people are historically affiliated with the Israeli Labour Party that ruled Israel and till 1967. So it’s not just about opposition to the more harsh aspects of the ‘67 occupation. It’s also the wish to weaken the settlers, like I said, you know, in order to gain more power within Israeli society, I would say that, from a socio economic perspective, they are the elites. But in terms of demographics, they’re somewhat on the decline. They’re used to be all powerful in the ‘60s and ‘70s. And they would like to regain some of that power. So some of it is sort of a domestic internal power struggle, some of it has to do with opposition to the settlement of the ‘67 occupation. And you could say that the Supreme Court’s tends to represent that point of view. But of course, some of the rulings that we’ve had in the Supreme Court, have been quite harsh and very hostile to Palestinians. And the language is often very strong, militaristic language. But overall, the Israeli Supreme Court is strongly supported by liberal Israelis, less so by the religious and ultra orthodox populations.

John Reimann
But, you know, I’m not just talking about the, maybe a wealthier layer of society, but the actual capitalist class itself. And I guess here’s what I’m getting at: In the United States. I believe the main wings of the capitalist class, their grip over society, their ability to influence society, and to influence the thinking of people has been extremely weakened. It still exists, but it’s very much weakened. And we see that with the rise of Trump and so on. For instance, Mitt Romney, just recently authored an article, I’m sure you know, who he who he is, Mitt Romney just recently authored an article in the Wall Street Journal about how to stop Trump. But I don’t think they’ll be able to stop Trump.That’s in the heart of their favored party, the Republican Party. And so what I’m thinking is that in Israel, you know, there’s a similar process, but it’s even more advanced than it is here in the United States, that the mainstream of the capitalist class would like to reach a settlement, but their influence in society, you know, is so weak that that they cannot.

Ofer Neiman
Yeah, there has been radicalization within the Israeli right wing, and we’re seeing some slogans and messages which which truly resemble what we’re seeing in the US. Some talk about the deep state, even against George Soros, you know, even including some of the anti semitic tropes against George Soros as someone who manipulates the world. We’re seeing that within the Israeli right wing. But I think that that some of the radicalization that we’re seeing here has to do with the occupation itself, with religious right wing politics in Israel, with their own plans, which are not new to control the entire territory between the river and the sea, to expel out expelled Palestinians to rebuild the Third Temple on the ruins of the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. So there’s also a strong element of religious fanaticism which is not that new, which has deep roots. So so some of it some of the processes are similar to what we’re seeing in the US the conspiracy theories the proposition of within these running right wing, but there’s also a strong element of religious fanaticism. You’re

John Reimann
right. I mean, you’re seeing that here too. But because

Ofer Neiman
with Evangelicals, yeah, yeah. Perhaps But I think that beyond that there’s also a far reaching extremist agenda here, which is actually at the core of the roots of the construction of settlements. Beyond the ‘67, borders. So some of these settlements were actually supported even by the Labour Party. But this is predominantly a project led by religious fundamentalist here, actually, since the late 1960s, just after the ‘67 wars, if you look at the roots of the settlement of in Hebron. So I think there’s a very strong project here with local with local aspects. Nowadays, they have very strong alliances with right wing groups in the US, but they also have their own agenda.

John Reimann
Right. I would guess, one difference is just in when and how the United States and Israel the states were founded. And the fact that Israel is basically a religious state.

Ofer Neiman
Yeah, yeah. It’s basically a religious state. There’s no separation here, unlike the US. So I would say that perhaps Christian fundamentalists in the US are more limited and restricted by that separation. So they can pursue religious politics, but the Constitution still protects minorities and prevents some aspects of religion taking over public life, which is not really the case here.

John Reimann
Right. Like, just for instance, you have what you mentioned, the religious courts in Israel, that actually have official status. I mean, all of that is weakening here. You know, one of the things that you mentioned that I found extremely interesting is that, in Israel, the struggle to preserve some of the formalities of capitalist democracy revolve around maintaining the strength, the power of the courts, to anul laws and so on. Whereas here is just the just the opposite. That the struggle that the attempts by the extreme right fanatics to weaken capitalist democracy centers around strengthening the court system, and particularly the Supreme Court and strengthening their ability to overturn Congress and the presidency.

Ofer Neiman
That’s one difference. As we can see, the US Supreme Court is controlled by a conservative majority, I think it’s 6 to 3 currently. So yeah, that’s a difference here. But but there is some similarity, because we’re seeing attempts in the US to nominate and appoint more and more right wing judges. And this is exactly what we’ve been seeing here. The right wing here would like to see more conservative judges in the Supreme Court. So they are also trying to reform the processes by which judges are nominated and appointed. They’re trying to overall, the courts and and appoint more conservative, right wing judges. So perhaps these are kind of different stages of the process. I understand that the in the past, there was a liberal majority in the Supreme Court. Now it’s changed. And these were the right wingers actually trying to do the same. The difference being that even with a so called liberal majority, in this very Supreme Court, there is no liberal approach towards Palestinians. Palestinians are living under a brutal apartheid regime. But there might be a difference when it comes to public life, Jewish public life here in Israel, privileges held by Jewish Israeli citizens and more conservative courts may support, marginalization of even some Jewish groups, right? women, LGBT etc.

John Reimann
Get back to the protests themselves. And these these particular issues: I keep thinking when I read about and see these protests is that you’ve had a government that has practiced racism or apartheid for decades. And now it’s coming back to bite you in the behind. Would you agree with that? And also, is there anybody within these protests that’s pointing this out?

Ofer Neiman
Absolutely. One typical example and I can send you the footage is when you see police brutality towards protesters, anti reform or anti judicial coup protesters in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, the violence in some cases, it can remind you, of what Israel is doing in the occupied territories, of course, not at the same level. They’re not using rubber coated metal bullets, certainly they’re not using live ammunition. But they’re using very powerful water cannons. And what’s more symbolic than a veteran, Israeli pilot, almost 70 years old, who was a senior pilot in Israeli air force, who actually lost an eye, after being hit by water cannon in Tel Aviv. And you see his photo with I mean, without the eye, and most of us are familiar with these horrible photos of Palestinian ochildren, and youth losing eyes to Israeli violence in the West Bank or Gaza at the time. So now you have these pictures of members of the Israeli elite in a somewhat simila -, not the same, of course, I’ll never say that it’s the same – but somewhat similar position. And people are talking about that. Yeah, they’re saying, especially this week now that this amendment has passed, they’re connecting the dots and say, the violence that has been perpetrated against Palestinians. And these right wing elites, which actually have grown in the West Bank, within the settlement project, are now trying to take over to take control and change Israel from its roots. And I think there’s a very strong sense of perceived threat here that now, just like you said, that it’s coming right back to bite liberal Israelis in their posterior.

John Reimann
You know, there’s something that somebody said about, about the far right, populist in the Republican Party, that like with the Tea Party and stuff were encouraged for a while. And then they came to take over the Republican Party. And somebody said, “you know, we fed the crocodile for years, and now the crocodile is eating us.” And if you think about, like, the far right in Israel, the settlers and so on, it would seem to me that it’s a similar phenomenon.

Ofer Neiman
Yeah, and especially within the Likud, which has been Israel’s predominant ruling party since 1977. Yeah, I mean, historically, Likud was based on this commitment to democracy. And most of the founding figures, in fact, they were very secular, even if they were sort of traditional. They were secular, believing in secularism to some extent. The Likud have been taken over by settlers and their supporters and also by these extreme right wingers. So if the founding figure of Likud, who was against the religious status and he wanted to see our secular democratic law in Israel, and even though he was a hard right, fanatic, he believed in equal rights for for Arabs. Nowadays, the people with Likud are for the most part closer to Rabbi Meir Kahane, who was an American Jewish rabbi, who actually founded the so called Kahanist movement, which seeks to marginalize and even expel Palestinians, and constantly in fights against Arabs, you know, including the slogan “death to the Arabs”. So nowadays, Likud is closer to that than to its historical roots.

John Reimann
So where do you think this, this is all headed?

Ofer Neiman
I don’t, I do not think Netanyahu or the government can get away with it. First of all, they don’t have a majority, according to public opinion polls. I mean, they do have a majority in parliament right now. But there’s a strong majority against the reform, based on all the polls that I’ve seen – masses of people are protesting and the right wing cannot organize, mobilize, and send an equal number of people out to the streets for counter protests. So I think that we’re going to see ongoing protests until this government either backtracks or is toppled, forced to agree to early elections. And even if he doesn’t agree, even if Netanyahu can hold on to power for the next three, three and a half years. I think we’re gonna see so much strife and grievance, the, the opposition will be able to win the next elections, but we we’re likely to see more violence, more police brutality, perhaps some political assassinations.

And probably the most burning issue right now is refusal. That’s a very interesting development, the surprising development that we’re seeing massive refusal by Israeli reservists. Israelis, as some of you know, typically is a reserve combat soldier. Even after their concrete service, they have to do reserve duty, or is asked to do reserve duty until the age of whatever 30, 35, 40. For pilots, perhaps even 55 or 60. And we’re seeing a massive wave of refusal by reservists serving in the so called elite units. These units are historically and currently manned by liberals and aren’t just, you know, pilots, Commando units in the Intelligence Corps. And they are refusing, they’re saying we will not serve under this anti democratic government. Some of them are even saying “even if it’s not just about standard training, if there is a so called Operation, I will not report.” And this is something which which poses tremendous difficulties for the government, and it’s going to keep growing and within several weeks, the IDF Chief of Staff is likely to tell the government that some of the units out are no longer in operational modes, for lack of training. So this is something to follow. And this is going to create a huge problem for the US government.

And we’re gonna see some other measures. I think that we’re also going to see some decline in terms of economic indicators, economic and financial indicators for Israel. We’re already already seeing some downgrading of Israel’s credit ranking. And there’s a massive loss of investments in these really high tech sector which is, has been very powerful. Companies are either being registered in the US rather than Israel, or investors are just deciding to, even if these are Israeli companies, these companies are started by Israelis. And beyond that some international investors may just look elsewhere. So I think that if this goes on, the Israeli public is going to witness some sort of economic decline. And everything that we’ve mentioned here favors the protesters.

John Reimann
So how do you think this will affect the situation in the West Bank

Ofer Neiman
we’re seeing right now sort of endgame in the West Bank. These Israeli settlers are trying to grab as much land as possible and they’re willing to use violence more than ever before. They’ve also sort of infiltrated the ranks of many combat units on the ground, perhaps not the so called elite units, which are still controlled by more liberal Israelis, but among the combat soldiers serving on the ground in the occupied territories, the border police, some of the infantry brigades, there’s a lot of support for the settlers with the right wing, many of the soldiers are right wing or settlers or religious folks, and there’s a lot of collaboration between the settlers and the military. It’s a joint operation. And I would use the term ethnic cleansing here, pogroms, violent attacks on Palestinian villagers trying to root out Palestinian communities. And I think that this year, already three or four small Palestinian communities in the periphery have been driven out as a result of settler violence. So so it’s ongoing ethnic cleansing. And we’re gonna see more and more of that.

This means several things, but one implication is that the occupation and the violence caused by occupation, will stay on the agenda, including international agenda, because when settlers perpetrated pogrom in a village, such as a Hurawa, you know, three months ago, the world is gonna see that. There’s footage, and and now with a government that’s quite supportive of this violence, and with military forces on the ground, which are supportive, will also probably see stronger pressure for legal for various lawsuits against Israel and, and legal proceedings against Israel in in international tribunals.

John Reimann
And how about the situation for Palestinians inside Israel? Number one, are they involved at all in the protests and also just in general, about situation for them?

Ofer Neiman
For the most part, they are not involved, because there’s so much militarism. And so when there’s Israeli flags in the protests, and many of these protests revolve around this narrative of “We are the people who actually defend Israel, we are the pilots, you know, we are the senior officers. We are the elite of the Intelligence Corps”, it’s not a natural place,not a political home for Palestinian citizens of Israel. They don’t feel comfortable there for the most part. But there is a growing anti occupation bloc within these demonstrations, certainly in Tel Aviv – people with slogans focusing on occupation and apartheid, calling for refusal. Most of them are Jewish Israelis, and also holding up Palestinian flags rather than Israeli flags. So probably it’s not natural for Palestinian citizens of Israel to join one of these blocs, but it’s not natural at all to join the broader demonstrations. And you’re probably familiar with the word chutzpah, right, which is a Hebrew or Yiddish word, having the nerve to do something. So perhaps the epitome of chutzpah here is that from time to time, we see some preaching by the organizers telling Palestinian citizens of Israel, “why aren’t you joining the these protests? It’s for you, because you don’t want an extreme right wing government.” You know, we have to remind them, you know, police brutality, certainly against Palestinians in the occupied territories, but also discrimination and violence, lethal Force has also been applied against Palestinian citizens of Israel, by all successive Israeli governments. I mean, Israel has not been a liberal democracy to Palestinians, and that includes that Palestinian citizens of Israel.

John Reimann
Yeah, my mother used to define chutzpah as the man who killed his mother and father, and then pleaded for clemency on the grounds that he was an orphan.

Ofer Neiman
Yeah, exactly.

John Reimann
So you mentioned this bloc of you know, Jewish and Palestinian Israelis. Can you talk a little bit more about that and what it’s doing how it’s developing?

Ofer Neiman
There’s always been a small minority here of of Jewish Israelis who are opposed to the occupation. For a while, especially during the 1980s. And during the first Likud years and the Oslo years, the 1990s. There was a broader camp including the Labour Party around willingness to dismantle some settlements to sort of try and end at least aspects of the ‘67 of the occupation, negotiate with the Palestinians with the PLO with the Palestinian Authority. Since the beginning of the Second Intifada in in 2000, especially after Prime Minister Ehud Barak, from the Labour Party, who told Israelis and the world actually that we Israelis don’t have a partner for peace. That was very destructive. Ever since that time, only a small minority of Israelis has been active against the occupation. And things probably became worse under Netanyahu in the past 12 or 13 years with growing efforts to marginalize Israeli activist and Israeli groups active against the occupation.

But what we’re seeing right now is that some people are connecting the dots. Israelis understand the connections are more Israelis understand the connections between what’s going on in the West Bank. And also, of course, there’s the occupation of Gaza, and militarism in general, and the judicial reform. So more more people are joining the anti occupation bloc. It’s still a fairly small minority within huge demonstrations. But it’s growing and I suspect that there’s an even larger number of Israelis who are still outside of that bloc, no, the ones who are still holding up the the Israeli flags and chanting all the Zionist slogans, who understand – perhaps they’re still reluctant to articulate this – but they understand that it’s strongly connected to to the occupation.And so I think we’re going to see growing opposition to the occupation.

And there’s also it’s going to be impossible now for the liberal Zionist to argue against refusal, because over the years we’ve we’ve had always had a small number of refusers, Israeli soldiers or even conscripts, the 18 year olds, who refuse to enlist altogether. The draftees refusing to serve because of the occupation. And historically, there has been strong opposition to such refusal from liberal Zionists telling us, “the military goal should be beyond any political debate. How dare you? You must serve. We’re under an existential threat.” But now that these people are refusing very strong, just saying “I will not report it. I will not report even if there is some operation and I’m called up but by the military.” They will not be able to lecture us on refusal, and it’s going to be easier for us to talk to the Israeli public about refusal to serve or refusal to enlist because of the ongoing occupation and apartheid.

John Reimann
So on a different plane: You’ve seen recently overtures for instance, between the Israeli Government and the Saudi regime and and others other similar regimes in the region. I believe Jordan also, if I’m not mistaken. How do you think all of this will affect affect that tendency of some of the Arab states to accept Israel?

Ofer Neiman
I think that these so called Abraham Accords are not really peace. I am opposed to these agreements, because these agreements are not meant to stop any bloodshed. There’s no ongoing war between Israel and Saudi Arabia. So these agreements are not really saving lives. In fact, they’re only making the conflict with the Palestinians. We’re making occupation and apartheid here, more violent. So these agreements, I think that just based on the growing violence, settler violence against Palestinians, have been sort of on the decline for the past months. And we’re also seeing some sort of rapprochement, you know, stronger links between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Right. Is really suddenly not happy about that. I think that these are Abraham accords had a lot to do with Trump and his administration. And for example, the Saudi government, sensing that perhaps they have a business opportunity here, and also that a Trump administration will be strongly supportive of these really right wing, including in annexation. Right. But right now, with Biden, and with ongoing violence in Israel, and apparent weakness within Israeli society, I would assume that the Saudi government does not see Israel as a very beneficial partner. Right now. In any case, the Saudi regime and others, of course, I mean, the Abraham Accords are between now between Israel and Saudi Arabia between Israel, and I think the Emirates and and Bahrain, right, and also with Morocco. But Saudi Arabia is the big prize. And all of these governments are I think they are saying that there’s some trouble here that these agreements are not going to deliver much for them. Yeah, and in any case, I think it’s important to contain these agreements are a form of normalization. with Israel. I mean, we are opposed to normalization, with Israel, with the Israeli government, at the expense of the Palestinian people.

John Reimann
All these all those regimes are thoroughly rotten. But, you know, we saw just recently, before all these protests broke out, Biden’s secretary of state pay a visit to Riyadh to the bin Salman regime. And it came out that that visit was coordinated with Israel. So they are still even under Biden, they are still working to create, you know, collaboration between the Saudi regime and the Israeli and presumably others.

Ofer Neiman
I can imagine that Biden would consider this to be a major achievement, a major foreign policy achievement for him ahead of the 2024 election. If he manages to secure some sort of peace deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia, so yes, they’re still working on it. We should be opposed to these agreements. And I think that overall, it no longer seems to be such a hot bargain for for the Saudi regime, but we’ll see. I mean, perhaps we’ll still see an agreement this year. I don’t know. I hope not.

John Reimann
We understand why we saw Zelensky was basically kind of trying to make make nice to the Israeli regime. And on the other hand, I would say, those of us, like in the Ukraine Socialist Solidarity Campaign – the overwhelming majority, if not all of us – are very much opposed to Zionism. But my understanding from what I’ve seen the majority of the pro Palestinian forces internationally, for instance here in the United States, take a position of apology for for Putin’s invasion.

Ofer Neiman
Yeah, so yeah, there’s a genocide in Ukraine and Russia Putin there is perpetrating a genocide in Ukraine. And it’s not just a genocide. It’s this under this umbrella political ideological of the so called “Ruski Mir,” Russian space, which is a lot like Hitler’s Lebensraum. It’s a genocidal war of expansion. And we should all be opposed to that. It doesn’t mean we have to agree with Zelensky, with Zelensky complimenting the Israeli government. Of course not. But first of all, we should be antifa, you know, Anti Fascist, anti genocide. And it’s so frustrating to see so many American leftists who either support Putin or just just think that this is a symmetrical conflict, and that NATO is to blame here, and that they are caught. And those people who are opposed to arming Ukraine, if we don’t arm Ukraine, there will be a Russian genocide there. And sometimes, I would like to ask these people, I mean, there’s so much incitement against Zelensky. I mean, I criticize him if he compliments the Israeli government for sure. But so many conspiracy theories against Zelensky as a Nazi. I mean, compared to Winston Churchill to your support of Winston Churchill, against Hitler during Hitler’s Lebensraum war… Zelinsky is surely better than Churchill. Churchill was a mass murderer, a colonialist. He had so much blood on his hands. And as far as I can recall, as far as I know, most American leftists, including socialist, communist Marxist, they supported U.S. aid to Churchill. Now, perhaps you know more about this, perhaps it only began when Germany invaded the Soviet Union? I don’t know You tell me. But overall, if people can justify U.S. support for Winston Churchill, they should definitely are justified arming Ukraine and supporting President Zelensky against Putin’s genocide.

John Reimann
It strikes me the real parallel here is a Russian invasion of Ukraine, and what amounts to Israeli invasion of the West Bank. And if you’re against one, you have to be against the other. And, legitimate serious, major criticisms of Zelinsky. But in regards to Israel and the West Bank, if somebody spent all their time attacking the Palestinian Authority, which I think there is very legitimate grounds to criticize them. But if they spent all their time doing that, and none of their time attacking the the settlements and so on, then, what are they doing? They’re, in fact, justifying the settlements policy.

Ofer Neiman
Yeah, I think we should need to work hard to bridge this gap between this divide between, you know, typical western liberals who strongly support Ukraine, but do not speak out about Palestine, and hardcore Western leftists who support the Palestinians, but do not stand with Ukraine. There’s a common thread here, and like genocide, pro human rights, anti fascism, anti occupation and so on. And so I think it’s very important for socialists who are pro Palestine pro Ukraine To try and bridge these divides and show that it’s possible to sort of consistently stand up for the right things.

John Reimann
Very good. I think. I think that’s the perfect closing message. Great, great. So, thank you very much offer and we look forward to working together and to exchanging views as we go forward.

Ofer Neiman
Thanks, John. My pleasure. 

Oaklandsocialist adds: For those interested in further reading, we recommend our pamphlet The New Apartheid: The rise of Zionism and the founding of the State of Israel.