There are important similarities – and also differences – between January 6 2021 in the US and the recent coup attempt. Workers here in the US should draw the lessons. Here, we talk with Brazil’s Fabio Bosco about “Brazil’s January 6th”. Transcript of interview appears below this video.

John Reimann
On January 9 of this year, the far right in Brazil tried to overturn the election of Lula DE SILVA for president. That attempt bore many resemblances to what happened here on January 6. In 2021. We had the chance to talk with Fabio Bosco of the Unified Socialist Workers Party of Brazil, about those events and what surrounded them. We wanted to talk with Fabio because of the the huge events that happen particularly in Brasilia the attempted coup, and also we here in the United States would have a particular interest in it because there’s clear connections between that and Steve Bannon and Trump. So do you want to talk a little bit Fabio, first of all, about just the background and whatever information you would have about that, about that event? They’re from? They’re in Brazil? 

Fabio Bosco
Well, the attempted coup happened on Sunday, okay, January 8. 4000 people came from different parts of Brazil, organized by far right organizations, which are led by our former president Jair Bolsonaro. And they have all their work facilitated by the police, and also by the army, and they managed to invade the three core institutions of the Brazilian bourgeois state, I mean, Parliament, Supreme Court, and the presidential palace are together. And for two hours, days, things are open to them to do everything.

Right wing truckers blockade Brazil highway in attempt to overturn election. The Federal Police did nothing to open up the highways.

These events were preceded by a series of actions since Jair Bolsonaro, lost the elections in the end of October. So first, in the beginning of November, they blocked the roads across the country, something like 500 points. Some of these places very small numbers, some a bit more, but everywhere, the Federal Police responsible for the highways were collaborating with them, they did not do anything to take them away from from the highway. Then they retreated and concentrated in front of the headquarters of the army in each state. And since then, they had been there. And in the case of Brasilia, this was the the starting point for them to to march and invade the three institutions I mentioned before. And even before the invasion, they did also they try to invade the Federal Police and put fire into buses, but the police close their eyes for what was happening. And they also try to explode kerosene for planes inside the Brasilia airport, but it failed. The bomb did not work.

So you see, John, they were on the rise. And what’s important to see is that there was institutions of the bourgeois state that were closing their eyes of all these events. And I can tell you, I have been to Brasilia many times for working class marches. You see in every time you have a lot of problem to get close to Parliament. Sometimes the police prevent us from from getting three kilometres from parliament. So you have to fight to start a war in the streets for you to get close to Parliament. And we did not see things like this. On Sunday, January 8. The police was escorting them to the entrance of of Parliament.

So I think that there are basically two main last lessons that we must learn from these events, always talking from the point of view of the working class: You see, it’s true that the all these events were a setback for Bolsonaro. And the far right organizations, which he leads, because the majority of the Brazilians, broad majority, 93% of the Brazilians did not agree with the invasion of the buildings and all the destruction that was delivered there. And it opened the way for the the state to put in jail 1400 people. These people, some of them are main far right organizers, you see people that are trained, that know what they are doing. And okay, the majority are, you have everything, see, some old people that are believing that they were there to save the country from Communism. You have some petty criminals. It was diverse crowd. But the leaders, the organizers, were an organization that was trained and knew perfectly what you’re doing there, you see, and these guys are totally connected with Bolsonaro.

And so what are the lessons that I mentioned here? The first one is that it was a setback for Bolsonaro. You see, and now it opens the way ffor the bourgeois state to put these guys in jail to, uh, to prosecute some funders and even there is a former minister of Bolsonaro who is in jail in Brazil.

But also another lesson is that it exposes the presence of the far right inside the police forces and inside the army. You see. For instance, the presidential palace, it was not broken from outside, the doors were open. You see, so the these guys, the rioters, they went into the palace with no, even the door was open. So who were taking care of the palace? The army. Who was taking care of the city of Brazil? The police forces. Who are taking care of the highways where 100 buses brought all these people to Brasilia? The Federal Police for highways. So what we notice is that there are important presence of these far right organizations inside the police and the army.

And so the working class must pay attention for this because Lula’s position stand is not to smash the far right, you see, it’s not to, let’s say, clean all the state institutions from this far right people. His politics is the same politics of the bourgeoisie which is to keep this far right organizations are alive, but not making some some excesses. As far right organizations will come against us. When we go on strike, when we do carry out demonstration, for the working class will need to develop self defense. You see, labor, social movements, we have to build networks of self defense in order to put out this for right organizations and fight for workers rights and workers power.

Fascist groups exist in U.S. military also.

John Reimann
So there’s some similarities there because we have the same presence in the United States. You have people like Eddie Gallagher, who was drummed out [of the Navy Seals]. Michael Flynn is the most outstanding example. But we know there’s surveys that have shown that the far right racist groups and so on, have been recruiting both in the military and also in the police. But yet and still, the military tops in the United States were decisively opposed to Trump’s trying to seize dictatorial power And I have the impression that it was something similar in Brazil, that the military tops also were against it. And that’s why, I mean, especially in Brazil with its history of military coups, that’s why there was not a coup this time. Would you comment on that?

Fabio Bosco
Yes, you’re right, the the top officials of the Army, what happened to them? They were flirting with the possibility of a coup d’etat. But the position of American imperialists was very clear, very clear: they were against it, you see. Biden’s administration sent messages [against it]. So this was something, how can I say, very influential among these leaders of the Brazilian Army, and also the Brazilian bourgeoisie the most important sectors, they were not in favor of a coup d’etat. In reality, there is a section of Brazilian bourgeoisie who was in favor of these Bolsonaro politics. One clear example is all these industries that benefit from the destruction of the Amazon rainforest. For instance, loggers, agribusiness, mining, these

The Amazon mining industry backed the coup attempt.

guys, they supported [the coup]. They clearly support all these actions. And they are among the funders of this action that happened in Brasilia a week ago. Not only them there are others, but it’s not the core, the core of the Brazilian bourgeoisie. So if the Brazilian bourgeoisie, and American imperialism don’t want a coup d’etat, it’s very difficult for the military to step in. I don’t know if you understand, but they were flirting with this possibility. So for instance, they help with Bolsonaro when Bolsonaro was saying, “No, this ballot box are not good. The elections are not fair.” And the military stepped in and said, “Oh, yes, we must investigate that.” So they were flirting, but they did not get red, green lights from the ones they they follow. Right. So without the green lights, they could not go on.

John Reimann
So here in the United States, in about the year prior to January sixth of 2020, there was a series of armed invasions… You know, in many states, in the United States, it’s legal to carry guns out in the open. So there was a series of armed invasions of state capitol buildings throughout the country, Oregon, states, in the Midwest, and so on. And they all got away with all of that. So that gave them the confidence, you know, to go ahead and do what they did. And in the United States, it was basically the military tops that stopped the coup. In Brazil, in some ways. It was, what you’re saying is the major wings of the bourgeoisie, the military tops, and US imperialism [that stopped a coup]. And in both cases, if you have to depend on those forces, to stop a military coup, you’re in pretty bad shape. You know what I’m saying? And so that leads me to the following question: In the United States, there’s an absolute crisis in the US working class. And standing at the head of that crisis, is the leadership of the unions, which have done nothing, were just simply the representatives of number one, the employers, and number two, the Democratic Party. Pure and simple, that’s what they are. And so, and they did absolutely nothing to mobilize any kind of working class resistance. So that leads me to my question as far as Brazil: What did the unions and workers organizations do, if anything? And if they didn’t do what you would consider to be adequate, why not?

Fabio Bosco
Well, John, what happened here is that before the elections Well, one year and a half ago, even the beginning of the pandemic, these far right groups, they were active. And then it started that response by the working class, both labor and social movements, but the politics that are more influential among labor and social movements, comes from Lula, comes from the Workers Party, not the workers, but Lula particularly. And so the majority of the leaders of the labor leaders and social movement leaders, they put all their cards on Lula election. That’s what happened here.

And so it was not possible to develop bolder actions by the working class. So the leadership played a bad role in this sense. Only more smaller organizations, my labor and people’s Federation, they we tried to do this role, you see, and we had some allies to carry that out. But it was not sufficient.

So the working class what they did, “let’s vote for Lula, let’s campaign for Lula. And the politics of Lula regarding the far right is if we have to do something against them, it must go through the bourgeois state institutions,” you understand? So the police must take action. The Army must take action, the courts must take action. But no, not the working class. Don’t know if you understand what I mean. So this was a big problem.

But look how interesting things we have this the week ago on Sunday, okay, they try to take all these three buildings, the next day, some labor organizations, social movements, they call demonstrations in all larger cities in Brazil. And Lula, did not call the people to join these demonstrations – the opposite. He together with the supreme court court and the leaders of Parliament, they said, Look, people must stay calm. You see, that was the message. So despite of this message coming from Lula, here in Sao Paulo, we had a very beautiful demonstration. I don’t know how many exactly maybe something between five and 10,000, or maybe a bit more. But a very lively. And what the people are saying demonstrating [for]? They were demanding the government not to provide any kind of amnesty for the far right, you see, which goes against all the efforts that the bourgeoisie and Lula are doing to to have a kind of compromise with Bolsonaro.

And there isn’t any socialist perspective and his administration, he just caught talk about, okay, the very, very poor. So the what Lula administration says, okay, the very, very poor, or you provide something, but we need to recover the economy. And so it will be, I think, one neoliberal policy after the other. And so the working class, have to stand up, you see, and the labor leaders. I think that they, they may, they will work to stop it, you see to prevent it.

John Reimann
But I’m guessing that those policies of the union leadership are matched with policies of not really mobilizing the membership to fight for higher wages and better working conditions and so on against the employers. That because that’s the situation here. And so my question is: is there any kind of organizing going on within the unions to to reverse those twin policies?

Fabio Bosco
I have to tell you that since 2015, the Brazilian economy is always either in recession, or a very small growth. And so what we have in Brazil, regarding the working class is a working class that’s more casualized and poorer, even the regular workers. So it’s a situation that may explode. But if it does not explode, it becomes a defensive moment, you see, and there are activists everywhere. And the activists that are close to the grassroots, all of them want to in a way or another to reply to all these backlash that are coming from the bosses and the

One of many strikes in Brazil in the years leading up to 2023.

governments, Brazil has a tradition of having many strikes. And see, there’s always this honeymoon, you see illusion that “we must wait for the government to deliver,” but it not delivering. And so I believe that these struggles will emerge, and depending on the how broad they are, they will open a space for us to, to fight back.

John Reimann
So I asked whether there is organizing going on within the unions to make the unions really fight for the members, and to make the unions fight for all workers.

Fabio Bosco
Yes, there is, inside and outside. You see, some struggles goes through the union, mass meetings and this kind of stuff. And others goals, kind of wildcat strike. You see.

(John Reimann
Fabio talked about a wildcat strike at a giant steel mill in the state of Rio de Janeiro. The strike won some gains, and the leadership of that wildcat strike an opposition group then won the leadership of the Union.)

Fabio Bosco
So it was an example of what we need to do everywhere in Brazil, you see, but this example did not expand everywhere. There are some places. But there are people everywhere you see, John, so I think that the moment that the working class sees that it has no other way but to to move. You see, to stand up. There will be guys, activists that will be there that to help help these struggles to go on.

(John Reimann
I asked two final questions. The first one was what was the position of Lula and also the views of the Brazilian working class regarding Ukraine?)

Fabio Bosco
Look, in the case of Brazil. It’s very interesting, because you see the elections. There was two

Devastation of Ukraine carried out by Putin’s invasion. Neither Bolsonaro nor Lula took a clear stance against this invasion.

major candidates, Lula and Bolsonaro, and both of them against Ukraine. So they, for instance, Bolsonaro was one of the few political leaders to visit Putin just before the invasion. You see, and he went there to make business and to see if Putin could help him in the in the elections. Brazil, increased the trade relationship with Russia since the invasion started, I think in something like, I don’t know, 100% a lot. And Lula, he gave an important interview to Time Magazine, where he put he blamed Zelensky for the war.

John Reimann
Right. I’m aware of that. Yeah.

Fabio Bosco
Yes. And of course I don’t support the Zelensky. Zelensky’s also carrying out labor reforms against the workers rights, you see? But they cannot blame the Zelensky [for the war]. The country was invaded by Putin. it was not Zelensky that invited invaded Russia or invited Russia to come in. So it’s a it’s a shameful position. Right. I don’t know exactly what Brazil will do, because Brazil used to follow a lot, the politics that comes from Washington. But I note as well, that the majority of the countries outside European Union, America, Canada and Australia – they are keeping their relations with Russia. Normally, sometimes they vote something against but they are not stopping any kind of commercial or diplomatic relationship with Russia. So maybe Brazil will stay like this. You’ll see. Lula of course, is talking about peace. In January 1, he met representatives of both Ukraine and Russia and he said that he is for peace. But you know, John, to say that you’re for peace, it’s not enough. Because when Putin says that he wants peace he means that he wants to keep all the areas of Ukraine that he has already occupied, that he has already invaded.

For the Ukrainian working class peace means to expel the Russian troops from the whole territory. And so I think that this word peace, we must qualify it. You’ll see otherwise, maybe the next demonstration for peace Putin will join you to see because it benefits him. And many organizations in the left they are in a way or another supporting the politic the policies coming from Russia see, and they are talking about peace ceasefire and all this stuff.

John Reimann
Right. It’s like, as I said before, it’s like if a man is raping a woman, and you say, “oh, we need peace between the two people.” No.

Fabio Bosco
Yes, yes, exactly. And so here in Brazil, we have this stuff you see the far right, and the most important representative of the left wing, they are together with the same stance regarding the invasion of Ukraine, see? They don’t stand in solidarity with Ukraine. But we have to see if something will change because, as I told you, US imperialism is very influential here. Maybe it will change. But look, John, even the state of Israel, which they are connected with Putin, you see, right. So they are they follow a lot the politics that comes from Washington, but even so they are with Putin.

John Reimann
So how do most workers see see the situation?

Fabio Bosco
Look the the working class in general, they sympathize with the Ukrainian people. In general, it’s this the activists, it’s something more problematic because there is the influence that comes from Lula and from different communist Stalinist organizations is seen. And because these guys influence the the activists a lot. And so among the activists, it’s more problematic [regarding] the solidarity towards Ukraine. But among the working class as a whole, there is a general sympathy towards Ukraine. Right. So, again, in Brazil, just for you to know there are seven labor Federation’s their only Labor Federation doing something for Ukraine is Cespe Com Lutas, the Labor Federation that I am a member of. It’s the only one. None of the others are doing anything regarding Ukraine.

John Reimann

Crooked US Representative George Santos: His politics aren’t that different from those of Bolsonaro. Are there any direct links?

My final question was about representative George Santos. And whether he is being discussed in Brazil since he’s originally from that country,

Fabio Bosco
The mainstream media, they talk a lot about him, because he’s the only guy with Brazilian descendants that is in Congress in the US. So they are talking about, but in a negative way. You see, because this guy could not be elected and anything like this, he should be punished for all the wrongdoings he did. I don’t know if he’s pro Bolsonaro, but I can tell you that if I had to bet, I would put all my cards [on it] because he’s the kind of person you see. That is from the millier of Bolsonaro. But I don’t know, I did not see any stand by him talking about supporting Bolsonaro

John Reimann
No, I haven’t seen that either. He’s extreme right wing. You know, although he’s kind of hidden that for right now. But in his campaign, he’s against women’s right to abortion and so on. But there’s $700,000 of his own personal money that he put into his campaign. And nobody knows where that money came from. And also, I just have to wonder if somebody didn’t put him up to running. So now that they know where he is, is there any chance that he’ll be that Brazil will try to extradite him

Fabio Bosco
Yes, they can ask, they can ask Brazil and justice can ask, it will be up to the US to decide whether to right to extradite him or sometimes what other countries do. Is that, “okay, I will judge him here for the wrongdoings you did there in Brazil see?” Right.

John Reimann
So I think that’s about it for now, Fabio, if you have any, like, final comments that you’d like to make to American workers and socialists here in the United States.

Fabio Bosco
Look, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to talk about the situation here in Brazil. I also see many similarities between the situation in both countries. This guy Steve Bannon is also deeply connected with Bolsonaro family. So there is a kind of international connection of the far right, which the working class must pay attention and fight back. And I wish the working class in the US will build an alternative to the Democratic and the Republican Parties you see. We need to fight for a worker’s power and overcoming this hindrance, which is the Democratic Party and the Republican Party is a necessity. And a victory of the American working class will be a victory of the working class worldwide.