John Reimann
We’re very happy to be talking with Philip Obaji, who is in Nigeria, and he is described by the International Center for journalists as, “The foremost journalist, reporting for international audiences on massacres, rape, torture and other abuses at the hands of Russian paramilitaries in central and west Africa.” He has traveled at considerable risk to himself, into other parts of Africa, and he’s also reported on human trafficking from Nigeria, such as this article, whose link I’m going to post when we publish this interview. So with that, welcome Philip. And how are things in Nigeria nowadays?

Link to Guardian article by Philip Obaji: “I lost my soul” – the teenage girls lured by traffickers from a Nigerian camp by Philip Obaji

Philip Obaji
Thank you for having me, John, and Nigeria is pretty much the same, the same way has been the last decade. I mean, we’re still dealing with insecurity in some parts of the country, particularly in the northwest, political stability to some extent, but my greatest concern here is the insecurity in some parts of Nigeria.

John Reimann
Just reading about youth protests, I think, for good governance or something like that. And also that the offices of the the Nigerian Labor Federation, had been occupied by the Nigerian government.

Philip Obaji
Well, it’s not anything surprising. Oftentimes, in fact, in the last couple of years, since 2020 when we had the INSAS protest, we’ve seen multiple protests across Nigeria in recent years with young people asking for good governance It is not strange government, the Nigerian government, you know, taking over in civil society offices and targeting the organized labor so we have become so accustomed to things like this, right?

John Reimann
A lot of your reporting has been about other countries in Africa. And as I read in the introduction, you know, you’ve done a lot of reporting on the role of Russian forces in Africa, and think that’s particularly important here in the United States, because a lot of the left somehow sees Russia as kind of like a liberating force in Africa. So well, can you talk a little bit about that, please?

Philip Obaji
Well, that’s how the Russians see themselves, as a liberating force in Africa. Well, they have been involved. That’s talking about the Russian faith tradition. They have been involved in a number of countries in Africa, and then their involvement is in the form of having military presence, proxy of

Philip Obaji
Russian paramilitaries from the Wagner group or from the brigade. I mean, Russia had militaries in countries like Sudan, in Libya, in Mozambique, in the Central African Republic, where they’re still active, and in Mali, where they’re still active. Well, in the last couple of years, in fact, since 2018 Russia has maintained a strong presence in the Central African Republic. We have over 1000 Russian paramilateries. We went from the Wagner group have been involved in efforts by the Central African government to fight against rebels that are scattered across the country. Well, the Russians are also involved in Mali, where Wagner parameters have been working with center with Malian soldiers to fight against jihadists in the north and against Tuareg separatists who are seeking independence for a region in northern Mali, which they refer to as Azawad. So don’t be desolate for Russian presence in Burkina Faso, the military winter has become very close to Russia in terms of how the corporate military and economically. And there’s some Russian presence in Niger where the military is also in control of power.

John Reimann
So you talked about Russia, being involved in opposition to to some like terrorist groups. So I’ve heard you report that it’s far more than that, also that there’s a whole different side. There’s a whole different side to Russian involvement, and like, for instance, Central African Republic and other countries,

Philip Obaji
That’s correct, John, and I’m going to explain how the Russians got involved in the Central African Republic in the first place. Now, the country tended into a civil war in 2013 when Christian militias and Muslim rebels fought against each other in control of the country, somehow, the Central African Republic was able to hold elections in 2016 and mind you, after it fell into the civil war in 2013 the UN imposed an armed embargo on the country, meaning they could not buy or sell or do any armed business country. So when Presiden tFaustin-Archange Touadéra, took office in 2016, he inherited a country that was almost entirely in control of this militiamen. In fact, only the capital Bangi was under government control, and it it was going to be only a matter of time before militiamen overrode the capital. So once he took office, had to turn to Russia for help in two ways. First, get the UN Security Council to lift the arms embargo. Secondly, wanted Russian soldiers to come into the country to do two things, one, to train the local forces to be able to fight against these militiamen, and two, to also offer to also provide security for the President and for some very key government establishments. Now, Vladimir Putin agreed to this request under condition that the Russian government, through the Baghdad group, will be able to have access to Central Africa Republic’s vast gold and diamond resources. The problem was more than 100 gold mines the country were in areas that were held by these militiamen, none of these gold and diamond mines were located in Bangi, where the government had control. So for the Russians to be able to do anything meaningful these areas, needed to fight against these armed militiamen. So once they came into the country in 2018 once the partner group arrives the country in 2018 they began finding ways to take control of this gold and diamond mines. And so it was always a battle with these militiamen, and in many instances, the Russians made no distinction between civilians and militia men. So when they go into the remaining community, they open fire at the population, a lot of people, which are those who they feel accomplices to these militiamen. So that’s why we’ve seen numerous, numerous incidents of massacre, rape, a lot of forms of human rights abuses. The same thing that we’ve seen in Mali, where the Russians, in its attempt to fight against Islamist jihadists, have labeled communities where the jihadists operates as you know, complete communities where you have complete is completely inhabited by terrorists. So when they invade a community, they punish the local population because they feel that the accomplices in this whole conflict here.

John Reimann
And is there any relationship between Russia and Ibrahim Traore in Burkina Faso?

Philip Obaji
Of course. Now I reported some years ago, when the coup first took place in 2020 Yeah, that the officers who were behind that coup had informed the then president that was the interest of his administration either invited the Russians to do business or to help fight against jihadists, but once the President rejected the offer, a month after he was toppled, but the officers who toppled the civilian president were also toppled. Other junior officers. This junior officers too have created an alliance with Russia. Russians have had to send over 300 members of the a brigade, which is another private military company. You know, the country. The aggregate is the Russian PMC, now the Russians somehow have been targeting democracies in Africa, in West Africa in particular, and there’s a lot of propaganda. There’s a lot of disinformation targeting democracy and trying. The aim of the aim is to somehow make democracy unpopular. Now they have somehow succeeded, to a reasonable extent, in creating an image out of Traore, picturing him as liberator, as the Messiah for Burkina Faso, and trying to tell other African nations that they could actually perform. African leaders can perform in the same way that Traore is performing. But this is all Russian propaganda, and it’s all Russian disinformation. If you go to Burkina Faso, where I’ve been to recent months, you will not see anything that depicts what the Russians have portrayed Traore. The country is still in a very sorry state. Poverty levels are rising. Insecurity is still very high. But Russians have, many ways, succeeded in creating an image of Traore, seen him as you know, figure that Africa needs

John Reimann
he first took power through the coup, was there a certain amount of popular support for him initially?

Philip Obaji
Well, it’s for some reason. You know, the military juntas in Africa are gaining much support from many of the citizens, and is because, to start with, a lot of times African leaders, or leaders in some parts of Africa have really failed to guarantee security, to turn around their countries economically, and I’m talking about the democratically elected leaders. And it’s even worse in countries in the Sahel that have experienced years of Islamist insurgency and local conflicts. So it’s often believed that critics and politicians have been behind some of these conflicts. So when you have a military crew with young officers seizing power and promising heaven on Earth, you’re always going to find people who support this, and the fact that coming up with ideas that somehow seem to be anti Western, which in some ways align with the disinformation that is growing across the region that tells people that the West is the big problem to Africa, and that France in particular, has been the major problem for these countries. So in this kind of situation, who is going to find massive support for military dictators?

John Reimann
Seems to me that part of it is almost like a lack of self confidence that we can solve our problems and looking for somebody to solve the problems for us, in this case, a military dictator.

Philip Obaji
Yeah, but you’re correct, John. And there are some people asking the question as to whether democracy works in Africa, and because, like I said, we’ve seen decades after independence, of lack of reasonable growth in many African countries, so it becomes very easy for military rule to sell, especially in this area of social media and this information that is growing in the internet and social media, so it’s easy to say a narrative, and where Africans African leaders have failed is the fact that they have done very little fight disinformation. And I sometimes think that even Europe, you know, should be able to step in, because much of Russia’s disinformation is targeting Europe and targeting the West, because they are trying to find new friends in Africa, trying to make Africa, Africans feel that, you know, the biggest problem to Africa is not Africans. It’s not Africa itself, but it’s the fact that the West is trying to interfere the affairs of African nations. This is the kind of disinformation that Russia fits on, and it’s kind of disinformation is actually an interaction across the continent.

John Reimann
You know, of course, there’s a whole horrific history of Britain, France and also the United States in its own way, of colonizing and just devastating African society, societies and during the wars of liberation, there Soviet Union played a somewhat different role. And so I’m wondering how much of the that collective memory of that history, how much that plays into maybe a certain support like, “well, Russia helped free us before, and they’re doing it again”, or something like that.

Philip Obaji
It’s true that, you know, Africa has suffered a lot during the colonial era, but it also gains during that era. But they always say that when the 21st Century and actions should be different. We’re not in the 19th century or the 20th century. Now, we need to be embracing a new way of partnership, and no, not brutality. What was done in the 1950s in the 18th the 19th century, 18th century, that was in the past. Going forward, we should not be talking about new colonialism in Africa. We’re talking about development, you know, in various ways now, in terms of how history is shaping things. Problem now is history is a little bit tricks, and the young people who are the vast majority of users of social media and the internet really not getting the right history. Now it’s been flooded across the internet that during the apartheid in South Africa the Soviet Union the biggest rule in terms of support for ANC, or in terms of being against apartheid. But lots of people will in argument to that. I mean, I meet a lot of South Africa, South Africans, who tell me that was the Ukrainian section of the USSR that really should have much support for anti appetite, appetite in South Africa. And there is history that I will leave for the historians, but when it’s been portrayed to Africa, feels like West were completely terrible. And I always say that the West really has its own flaws. You know, I think that France has not really done, did not really do well in the decade, or close to a decade of its involvement in the Sahel in Mali and in Burkina Faso. I mean, the French deployed troops in that region, and we didn’t see any results in terms of the defeat of jihadist groups and terrorism in the region. So French also had its problems in Central Africa under the UN nation, but the Russians have not been any better.

Philip Obaji
Russians have not been any better for Africa, because since the Wagner group got involved in ___, we haven’t seen much gains in terms of how jihadist groups have fed, in terms of how have been defeated, though they have not been defeated. So what we see is a growth in conflict, growth in violence, and we’re seeing the Russians explore and exploit resources of the Central African Republic. So if the West didn’t do well, then Africa is not going to be better from Russia,

John Reimann
Can you talk about some of the other countries in Africa where you’ve focused attention and have done reporting on recently?

Philip Obaji
Well, I have a lot of attention on the Central African Republic and Mali, but recently, I’ve started to look at this information from Russia that’s targeting the entire West Africa. One of the countries where this information is growing is Niger, which is very important country for migrants who are seeking travel to Europe through the Sahara Desert, the Mediterranean Sea. And what I’m witnessing is a growth in the people smuggling operations in the country now city called Agadez. Agadez is a city in the central part of Niger, an important hub for people smuggling. So the vast majority of sub Saharan Africans who are seeking travel to Europe usually converge in Agadez. So what happens is that when a people smuggler, when a migrants, intending to travel to Europe, he or she first travels to Agadez and then finds a smuggler who makes sure that he or she is able to get to the vehicle that (crosses?), The desert Libya, and then from there, Italy or Greece. The issue is this, because there are 1000s of people hoping to travel. So usually migrants, spend weeks waiting for their chance to get on the vehicle. And they wait for weeks they are paid monies to landlords. They stay in hotels or brothels, whatever it is, and that helps in boosting the economy of Agadez. Now EU was concerned about this massive movement people from Africa, from Agadez all the way to Italy or Greece. So what they did was they funded the Nigerian security forces and even pushed the Nigerian government to be able to get the parliament to pass a law that criminalized people smuggling. That law was passed in 2015 but three years ago, after the military took power in Niger, one of its first acts was to abolish that law, which effectively decriminalized people smuggling. So what we’re seeing right now is that the people smuggling trade has returned. It’s booming. But that’s not all. As we speak, there are people on the streets encouraging local Nigerians to travel to Europe, and even in one of my last recent visits to Niger, I listed on the local radio station how competitors, pro Russian commentators were encouraging Nigerians travel to Europe, claiming that there are vast opportunities for people to excel in Europe. So that’s its way of one, boosting the business of migration, of people smuggling mechanisms, but also it forms part of the Russian agenda to flood Europe with migrants, or to create a migrants crisis on Europe borders. So that’s part of the Russian agenda. So that’s what I’m investigating. And also I’m seeing that there’s a growth in the Russian trolling social media, there are many Russian trolls that are creeping up, and much of these trolls accounts that are targeting democracy in Europe. Recently, the Netherlands had its elections, and we had massive disinformation from Russian trolls, and many of these rules are actually stationed in Africa, in countries like Nigeria, Ghana and what have you.

John Reimann
I understand that they are somewhat influential in South Africa also.

Philip Obaji
Well, yes, I mean even the ANC, which is the ruling party in South Africa, somehow have been very empathetic or sympathetic towards Russia, and you have a lot of Russian friends in politics. But again, it goes back down to history, where many South Africans feel that the Russians may have did play an important role during the apartheid also it’s the economic drive, because South Africa is part of the BRICS alliance, the BRICS Economic Alliance, and it’s always favorable to them if they continue to do business with Russia. And you see the friction currently between the South African government and the Trump administration. So also, it’s a loophole that the Russians have ceased.

John Reimann
Yeah, I have to say, seems to me that so called West, which, you know, when we say West, we should ask ourselves “west of where?” some parts of the world it would be, the east of someplace. So in any case, like the United States in Western Europe, because they are more powerful economically, but don’t have to invade troops. They Can just invade with money, finances.

John Reimann
And so seems to me that that’s part of the equation that we should not forget about.

Philip Obaji
Yes, I agree. What the West has done and what the West is doing, and I’m not defender of the West. I still always argue against some of their policies and interests, just here, but also in third world countries across the globe, and they are very smart in the way that they operate, and sometimes it’s very difficult to actually hold them to account for some of the things that they have done today. They do, but I think the Russians are much more direct, which makes it very difficult to investigate, also, which makes it even a lot easier to investigate. For us, who are journalists, we feel that in the field of investigation, and also because of Russian troops on the ground, and it’s very clear what they’re doing, committing human rights abuses and what have you, then it makes it easy for you to point fingers Russia. Now what Western nations have done in Africa, it looks___.. They succeed, especially in recent years, is the fact that African governments have embraced this and are willing to do their bidding and easy way for us, of course, we hold the government to account is that we are seeing people who are the ones doing this. We cannot see the West and see decisions that local governments are making, and oftentimes they are influenced. But it’s very difficult to say, “Okay, well, this is how the influence has happened. This is where the influence is coming from.” But when we put our thinking cap, and then we have realized that, yes, there’s always external interest, but it’s very difficult to come up with evidence, taking no by these kids. It’s very, very easy to identify what they win.

John Reimann
Yeah, it’s easier to see the troops than the finances.

Philip Obaji
So that’s correct. Yeah, it’s easy to see the troops like in we look at what was seen in Central African Republic, where communities have been invaded by foreign actors. This case, Russia, seen people been held hostage. Listening to stories of young girls who have narrated how they were raped and abused. We have seen incidents of massacres, you know, was seen how young people are tortured, seeing how women are killed and disempowered, you know, the intestines out of them. So the kind of situations that really make other people bring me very uncomfortable,

John Reimann
It’s pretty horrific.

I was just reading Things Fall Apart by the author from your country, Chinwa Achebe, I have to tell you, about halfway through it, I had to stop reading it because it was so it’s like reading this tragedy you know that you knew was going to come about, how the society that people themselves had developed, how things fell apart, that whole society was just ripped apart. It seems to me that you’re describing something similar.

Philip Obaji
Again, there is even worse. You know, Chinwa should be explained, you know, the web, by the white man’s influence and impact in Africa the time, during the colonial era, and how, in some ways, we had to really change culturally to be able to accommodate the colonial masters and what have you. But then we didn’t see a situation. I mean, there were times when the British fought, in with the locals the colonial era. I didn’t watch. What I know about is about what happened during the colonial era. Well, when I read in books, but again, when in the 21st Century, and what was seen is another version of what some African nations experienced during the slave era, slave trade era, and also during the colonial era. So it shouldn’t be happening in the 21st Century. That’s where I’m coming from. Yeah.

John Reimann

So you know, you know this is speaking from Oaklandsocialist. We Have a socialist perspective, and just in conclusion, I’d like to put your thoughts on this honestly, from hundreds of years ago, capital, it seems to me, capitalism has offered nothing but a nightmare to the people of Africa. I’d like to get your thoughts on that.

Philip Obaji
You are correct, but can we blame capitalism? Do we blame corruption? So that’s the thing. So whether we are socialist or capitalist, it all depends on exactly what happens, what decisions are taking at the top. And I still think you know that capitalism can work, and can be useful for Africa if we have systems itself are working, and if people in positions really want the system to work. So it is about a system failure for less than about what word of life, what way of life that we choose, you know? So the system has failed. The institutions have failed. So that’s why it feels like capitalism really hasn’t worked so many areas in Africa where you see the blend of socialism and capitalism. But the truth is, things are not working, not because of way of life we’ve chosen, but simply because, you know, we have corruption queen so massively made in many areas.

John Reimann
We can conclude on that note, but I have to say you want to you talk about corruption. United States is probably home of corruption at this point with Trump in office. And this is we’ve had “corruption” in this country for many, many, for centuries. But Trump beats them all, you know, and he does it just out in the open, and so I have to wonder what what we call corruption, is it not just simply the expression of the very values of capitalism, which are enrich yourself.

John Reimann
So if you’re supposed to enrich yourself, why shouldn’t somebody, when they get in office, do the same thing.

Philip Obaji
What do you what you see the US and Europe, systems have been placed. You have systems that have been in place for centuries. And people work the system, and the system works now in Africa, you have, you know, a collapse. You don’t have systems in place in the first place. Example, the healthcare has been working. Look at the issues around the economy. Look at issues about about respects. You know, the transport systems work, the health systems work, the educational systems work. And the systems have been put in place for centuries. And wherever migrates from Africa, from Asia to Europe or the US, when they get there, they fall in line with the system. Like, you know how to behave. You know how to follow the rules. You know how to but we don’t have we haven’t seen much of the systems put in place right here in many parts of Africa, so it makes it very difficult. So even if you have a Trump in office and his policies are not going well with the people, people haven’t lost their sense of reasoning. People have not decided to break traffic rules, the left, right center, people have not decided to disrespect the institutions that really have made America a good country. So that’s the difference, yeah, between what happens there and what happens here.

John Reimann
Poverty and even chaos are relative both relative to another part of the world, and also what you what you expect, you know. And so most people in the United States would say, “Well, no, the health care system is not working here.” Or, as some people have said, “America has a healthcare system – don’t get sick”,. So. So the other point is that a lot of people would argue that part of the reason that things work better, let’s say, in Europe or the United States, is because of the tremendous wealth It stole from Africa, Asia and Latin America for 100 years or more that gave it kind of a foundation in

Philip Obaji
that’s a good point, but the wealth that the US has is not what has told Americans to build traffic rules, but It’s not America’s wealth that Americans how to ensure that when you’re in office, money is meant for healthcare or for education or for Social Security be used at least a reasonable extent for what is it is made for. It is not the money that was stolen. Told Americans that where there are resources in the US, people should find ways of exploring these resources for the good of the American people. Now what we see here is the fact that when you find a country in Africa that has military resources, that’s gold, what has oil, whereas diamonds, whatever it is. Always find conflict in that area. Modern factors, what infections in everywhere. Now, when someone is given the privilege of serving in high office, I mean, this doesn’t happen everywhere, but in many places, when someone has a privilege of serving in high Office or Office tested here, she thinks about is how to amass [wealth for] yourself. This not the monies told many years ago that has made people to be self conscious

Philip Obaji
is the fact that people came together to agree to decide the most developed environment they must stand for each other, and they must make really very great. So I still think that culturally, we have a big problem in Africa where we need to sit down tell ourselves, it doesn’t matter where you come from, it doesn’t matter what language you speak, it doesn’t matter which God you pray to, we must find a way, find a way to agree on something must develop our communities.

John Reimann
Yeah. So I mean here, not just in the United States, actually, we see throughout, throughout Europe and beyond, how the system really works through name of one single person, Epstein, and we see that that I mean the entire ruling class from Denmark and Sweden, Great Britain, Israel And, of course, the United States, involved in human trafficking, basically rape of young girls, all this, and also bond with that has been the sale of state secrets. So, I mean, that’s how the system works here.

Philip Obaji
So again, we’re talking about a selected few, you know, and I don’t believe that the fact that this files have somehow implicated massive amounts of politicians, it doesn’t represent the best of my majority of who Americans are, who Europeans are, or even Africans are, if any, Africans. But it’s very unfortunate that some people will, really should be protecting values that are critical to life would be involved in such such a scheme. And it’s really, really sad.

John Reimann
But I mean, it’s not just the politicians. Bill Gates was involved for example,

Philip Obaji
of course, you know, very influential people in in the society, not just those in government or those politics, but we’re also people in business, people in the arts and very influential people everywhere, so but it’s really sad that you know that, which now feels like an organized crime was even allowed, was even allowed to take place in the first place.

John Reimann
Has the whole Epstein scandal been is that covered in the present, in Africa,

Philip Obaji
well, on social media. Well, it’s massive. And some particular I live in the Russians too, are even spreading this, I mean, even spreading this information regarding this, I’ve also been one of the few journalists who’ve been targeted by some Russian troops who claimed that I provided cover for a man called Mark Epstein, with a claim, he brought her to Jeffrey Epstein, and they claimed that Mark was involved in trafficking African girls, you know, from Africa, and some journalists, including me, exactly provided cover, you know, for for these operations, which is complete nonsense. You know, I don’t even know who my dear Epstein is. I never knew Jeffrey Epstein was until this will kind of keep to people,

Philip Obaji
yeah, so that, um, you have any final words, Philip, for, for, For listeners or people that are watching this video here in the United States and elsewhere, what final message would you like to get across?

Philip Obaji

I want people to just know that in Africa, we’re facing a big problem, first of all, with Russian disinformation. And some of what people may understand about African democracy and what happens in Africa. Maybe distorted because we have massive disinformation, and hit always sound like a beggar, but I think at this point I can ask that Europe, the US, will need to also join hands with African nations to find this information.

John Reimann
Okay. Thank you very much for your time, and we will be following your writings, and I hope we get the chance to discuss again in the future.

Philip Obaji
Thank you so much, John, it’s a pleasure. Yeah. Okay.

John Reimann
Recording stopped. Okay, thanks again, Philip, and I’ll send you the link when I publish this on my blog site. Thank you, John. I’ll be happy to read Okay. Best wishes. By the way, I should just say about Epstein. I think that one thing, the reason that that women in Africa and girls in Africa not involved in his whole net because he’s so racist, you know, that they only wanted white women. Yeah.

Philip Obaji
So, yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. Have a great evening. Okay, bye, talk to you later. Bye. Later.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai