Here is Part 2 of my interview with Trevor Ngwane. In this interview, he talks about left and right wing populism in South Africa and some other points about current politics in the country. Below the video of the interview is a transcript. These interviews can also be heard on the Oaklandsocialist podcasts. This interview has been edited for length.

John Reimann
In this section of my interview with Trevor nguana, Trevor talks about the rise of right wing populism in the form of Jacob Zuma s umkhonto Wei Sizwe and left wing populism in the form of Julius Malema’s Economic Freedom Fighters, and the complex relationship between those two. He also talks about some of the ins and outs of current politics in South Africa.

Trevor Ngwane
That topic is a pet topic of mine. You know, the rise of right wing populism in South Africa, and n Africa, can you see, and I can tell you the problem exists here. Yeah, it exists. Ja, for example, you remember that in South Africa, we have these incidents of xenophobia, like violent attacks on migrants from Mozambique, from Ethiopia. It happens regularly,

John Reimann
and that’s still going on?

Trevor Ngwane
The sentiment is still there. Can you see? So for example, that party of Zuma, umkhonto Wei Sizwe, you know, there’s a strong anti immigrant sentiment in there. Fortunately for us, the Economic Freedom Fighters of Julius Malema supports opening of the borders. Can you see? Yeah, yeah, although commentators say that’s why he loses votes. So that tells you another story, isn’t it? But listen, populists come in two shapes – a right wing and the left wing. But populist, they are chameleons. So remember, Mussolini started off as a socialist! of course, with right wing populism, especially anti immigrant xenophobia. You know, we’ve got movements here against xenophobia organized by the left, but we’ve seen that in the last local government election, even the last election last year, which led to this Government of National Unity, some of the smaller parties, they got in using an anti immigrant platform, such as we’ve got a a flamboyant guy, Gayton McKenzie, his party, the Patriotic Alliance. He famously came up with his slogan, the Zulu slogan, mahambe”, they must go away”. And today he’s part of the government of national unity. He’s a Sports Minister, and he’s like, the guy you know, you know those ministers Mavericks were always saying things, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Ngwane
Also, recently, we had a crisis here of passing the budget because the government of national unity could not agree on a budget. The issue was VAT, okay? Ja, uh, you know, value added tax, so the ANC wanted that, but in the end, it didn’t happen, okay. But that party, the opposition, Democratic Alliance, refused to pass the budget. The ANC only managed to pass the budget by bringing in some political parties who are outside the government of national unity. One of them is action SA, the party of millionaire business millionaire Herman Mashaba. His party is also anti immigrant. Can you see?

John Reimann
Is that a white party?

Trevor Ngwane
Oh, that’s a black party. the one the patriotic alliance of Gayton McKenzie. It’s a Black Party, but it’s a so called colored party, couple of mixed races. So it’s colored nationalism, yeah, which we detest here.

John Reimann
You know around the world, all the anti immigrant and nationalist movements, I don’t know about all of them, but they tend to also be, well, obviously, racist, but that’s a different thing in South Africa, but also very much male supremacist. Is the nuclear family, also anti LGBTQ, just a traditional male female roles and that sort of thing. Do you see something like that also in those parties,

Trevor Ngwane
Not a lot, but certainly so I would say a clear cut right wing populist party which you know the world would pay attention to, besides this colored party you know would be Zuma, MK party. Now remember, Zuma is a Zulu nationalist. Zuma is a polygamist. Zuma is homophobic. I mean, he said openly, you know, Zuma is misogynistic, you know, in the sense of being anti woman. So remember, and his party is relatively new. It was formed a few months before the 2024 May election, which saw the ANC lose its majority, and we have this Government of National Unity. But Zuma’s message was real, real right wing. He was busy with the churches. He was busy with the chiefs. Here, it’s called traditional leaders. So this is like the Chiefs Nduna, the Kings here. They are not a progressive force at all. Can you see, yeah, because the laws which govern, upon which their rule is based. These traditional leaders, these chiefs, is very anti woman. And remember, the first party in South Africa is ANC, okay, it lost its majority, but it’s still number one, 40%. The second party is this white party. Well, it’s not really all white, you know, there’s black people there, but you know, it’s history and it’s politics are white -, uh, Democratic Alliance. The third one was the Economic Freedom Fighters of Julius Malema. Let’s call them left populist, but I’ll come back to them.

Trevor Ngwane
Now, when Zuma came with his party, he displaced this Economic Freedom Fighters and became the third largest And then one critique was, “what does MK stand for?” Because they’re coming with ridiculous ideas, like to fight unemployment they’re going to have army conscription, military conscription. Women, teenage pregnancy? They’re going to fight it by sending the pregnant women to Robbin Island. Some real crazy right wing ideas. But as soon as they won, you know, got their positions, they did very well in KwaZu Natal, the Zulu nationalist base of Zuma. Then they started modifying their message. I think now they can they are smelling power and some big guys, you know, Zuma is also connected to some black bourgeoisie, whatever, even white bourgeoisie so they know there’s a possibility that you could take power again. So if you say these things, you’ll never you know what I mean. So they modified, but there’s still some telling things. So for example, he got people to become members of parliament, to be parliamentarians, some who are poster boys for corruption. You know what? I’m. In ja, so they are known for everything corrupt, in running the railway system, in running our energy system here. So this is what right wing populist Do you know? They pack the government with crooks and scout rails because exactly they don’t want opposition within the cabinet. When they start pushing they are okay. Most of them are corrupt. You know, you know, the big league must be rich. Everyone knows Zuma wants. He’s taking care of his family. Do you know what I mean? Ja, and then, if he works with you, he’s going to reward you with money, with position, with power. But everything revolves around him. Exactly what Trump is doing. Can you see? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, just to shift a bit, to complicate it now with the economic freedom fighters who, let’s call them left populace, can you see so they are the ones calling for yes, we got our political freedom, but we didn’t get our economic emancipation. Okay? We must nationalize the banks, nationalize the mines. We must get the land back. Can you see ja as a footnote? SISO MK is now saying that too. Can you see so they are adopting a left posture? Can you see ja, and they’re describing some of that misogynistic, you know, you know, yeah, yeah, patriarchal. So that’s my lemmas position. But the problem now is that as a populist, you know, and, and, and that’s how his ridicule, you know, julius malema is the leader of his EFF. He’s ridiculed for being they call him flip flop. I’m not certain that if he were to become president and take power, he’d stick to left populism. He might slide to the right, yeah. Now the a guy, let’s call him a comrade who used to work closely with Malema. They were like, you know, peace in a pot defected to Mk. Can you see ja? And then he’s helping MK to build his structures. You know? He became an organizer, and then now he’s a secretary general. So you can see now they, there’s now a, let’s say there’s a continuum from left to right. Can you see ja? So the Mk and EFF, they they had a certain kind of understanding. Can you see ja? But then I think they still do, but then they found that they are fishing from the same pond. Claim. My last point there is that, remember also, both of them are big men parties. So is Zuma is male. Can you see? Yeah, but they have met. You know, even long time they meet. But also remember, Malema was expelled by Zuma from the ANC. So, you know, the ANC failed so much whilst representing itself as some kind of left. Can you see, ja, to the extent that suddenly the middle classes here, they feel that, and also some working class people, I maybe it’s going to work if we work together with the whites. So, John, here, there’s desperation. 40% unemployment is not a joke. The black working class in South Africa has a history of unity. The desperation for jobs, you know, then, makes the ground fertile for right wing populists to actually, you know, stoke hatred. In

John Reimann
In the third and final portion of this interview, Trevor will talk about the degree to which those old traditions of working class unity and socialism still remain, and the degree to which they have been lost, and the role of the. Or what you could call elders, in the movement to reviving those old traditions. What that role is.