Here is the first part of the interview with Trevor Ngwane. Below it is a transcription. Also, listen to this as a podcast here. This interview has been edited for length.
John Reimann
About a week after Trump leveled his racist lies when he met with South African President Cyril Ramaphosa, I was able to catch up with Trevor Ngwane. Trevor is a long time workers leader and socialist in South Africa, and he’s also a writer and professor of sociology at the University of Johannesburg. Trevor talked about a great many different subjects, and I’m producing this interview with him in several different sections, because the interview as a whole was almost two hours long. In this first section, Trevor discusses the general views in South Africa of the meeting between Trump and Ramaphosa, as well as his own views. He also discusses the current political situation in South Africa regarding the current government of national unity. And then he goes on to discuss Africa day and the whole concept of African Unity. Finally, he discusses the relationship between South Africa and US imperialism, and also the role of Chinese China and Russia, and he concludes with some points about bourgeois democracy. In the following portions of this interview, we will present Trevor’s thoughts on what happened in the South African revolution against apartheid and a lot more. Also
Trevor Ngwane
In this country, there’s usually not a lot of shades of gray. So if you talk to people the others fall to this side, “it was very bad. You know.Ramaphosa, you know, why did he take the billionaires? Why did he take the whites? Only the white spoke, you know, Trump listened only when the white man spoke.” This and that. Also, there’s this question of the white guy, his minister, who actually is the leader of the opposition, but now they are in the Government of National Unity of one of the white men called the the political party, Economic Freedom Fighters, and the other political party, uMkhonto we Sizwe, associated with Zuma, you know, so, so that was that firstly, of course, there is that kind of inherent nationalism, you know, “He’s our guy. He’s representing South Africa.” South Africa’s more or less economy dependence, or strong reliance on US American business. Ramaphosa had no other way but to try and flatter Trump, and he couldn’t really stand his ground or confront Trump. And then also, there’s, there’s a view that he played his cards well by bringing you know the golfers who apparently Trump asked for the goldfast. On the other hand, the critics say “no, but you, as President, you should speak for all South Africans. You don’t have to bring white people to speak for white people.” Can you see? So you are actually… so they feel that Ramaphosa fell into the racialization, you know, of politics,
John Reimann
I asked Trevor what his view was. He started off by describing how he sees the situation. I would
Trevor Ngwane
You find a situation these days of fascist without fascism.
John Reimann
Trevor then talked about the coalition government of national unity,
Trevor Ngwane
Especially the new government of national unity, the southern government is retreating from the from its mandate of national liberation. Can you see, because remember the whole struggle against apartheid was not just about getting rid of racism, but was also for economic justice. To summarize my point of view, John, I would say Africa is not for sale. Can you see? So what came out strongly for me was that Africa is for sale.
You know that on Sunday, 25 May, which is like a few days after this departure, it was Africa day. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, that’s the day it’s celebrated in everywhere in Africa. That’s the day the Organization of African Unity was formed by Kwame Nkruma and the great leaders. Yeah, yeah. Now, the vision at that time was at least Nkrumah, who was a socialist by the way, was a radical form of Pan Africanism, which was captured in his slogan, “a United States of Africa”. So he wanted to overcome the colonial national borders.
When we think of Africa Day, we also think of the African diaspora. We also think of our brothers and sisters, you know, black Americans, African Americans, and we ask ourselves, we remind ourselves, how they got to be in America. They went there slaves. Can you see? Yeah, so when we say Africa is for sale we’re not just talking about today’s imperialism, today’s capitalist exploitation, today’s uneven development, today’s Trump’s, I know what Trump’s protectionism, you know, is asserting, you know, might is right. We also think about all those people who were bought and sold, you know, in Africa.
So there is that real sense that what happened at the Oval Office is is so painful, it’s an insult, you know, to that history.
And okay on the other end, when Ramaphosa went to meet Trump that same week. The big story in South Africa was the unemployment figures. So our unemployment rate, it’s called the expanded definition, when you count everyone who’s unemployed, it’s at 40% can you see? more than 40% with the youth. It’s more than 60%. So there is a view that Ramaphosa, our government, must do everything and anything to actually make sure that the situation doesn’t get worse. Everyone wants to make sure that their economies grow, that they can take care of their people, but in doing that, it becomes competitive, it becomes divided, and it ends up being a question of allowing right wingers like Trump, who have managed to grab power. It’s exactly that relationship with America, with global capitalism, which has left South Africa with an unemployment rate of 40% can you see. Yah, because all the worlds profit repatriation and Trump…. Trump’s deal is not to actually haelp the countries. It’s to squeeze them more. You know what I mean? Yeah, because we know where he’s coming from. The American economy is declining, John. The reason it’s declining is because capitalism itself is in crisis. The biggest capitalist economy in the world is going to have a problem when the very system which it’s on top of, you know, is in crisis on
John Reimann
On the issue of of Pan African the Pan African League and African Unity. And the first thing that comes to my mind is the Arab League. And so it strikes me that the question is really, Unity of who? Unity of the capitalist governments, or unity of the working class?
Trevor Ngwane
That question, John is, it’s very deep, because, remember, there’s this idea now that we’re choosing between the East and the West. We’re choosing between, I don’t know, BRICS, China, and the EU or America, but in China, what is happening there. It’s what we call capitalist restoration. Can you see? So it’s abandoning the socialist vision and project in Russia. You know, we might be nostalgic about the Russian Revolution, but you. know, Russia is, is neoliberal. Can you see? Yeah, so that’s, that’s the real confusion. And I can also relate that, take it further. So there’s this whole thing about how Trump is backtracking from what I can call multilateralism. You know, the idea that you know there should be regulations the United Nations, there should be the World Trade Organization, whatever. But the truth is that multilateralism did not do much to stop the suffering of the working class, not only in the Global South, but sometimes in the Global North.
So I think this whole thing really at the heart of it, it’s class strategy. It’s a capitalist crisis. And when there’s a capitalist crisis, the bosses always try to make the working class to pay. Making poorer countries or developing countries or third world countries pay a price, is part of that just dynamic, if you know what I’m trying to say, yeah, yeah. It’s part of a class dynamic. Yeah? So yeah, I agree with you. You know, even pan Africanism, it should be, let’s say, revolutionary pan Africanism, calling for socialism, calling for, I don’t know, workers power, workers governments, Bourgeois democracy has always been the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. You know. Whether it’s tje Democratic Party or the Republican Party or the African National Congress. Can you see? Yeah, yeah. So, but now all pretense is gone. Now. Now might is right. If you have got the money, you have got the power, you have got the bombs, you can bomb Palestinians to smithereens. There’s no consequence, right? If you have got the money, you can exploit the poor. You can exploit, you know, the working class, no consequence. That same attitude you will find even at the workplace, you know, bosses now feel, “Oh, why should we have a union?” You know. “I’m giving you, you know, a chance to make a living.” foreign direct investment. You know, it’s not as if, when they do foreign direct investment, they’re coming here as a charity to donate to Africa or global south countries. No, they’re here to make a profit. Can you see? Yeah, and as soon as they can’t make a profit, they pull out. And, in fact, once they are here, they start demanding tax concessions, all sorts of, you know, I don’t know, kickbacks, concessions from these third world governments. Yeah, yeah.
